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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 George III sauce ladle?
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| Author | Topic: George III sauce ladle? |
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suefromoz Posts: 58 |
posted 07-26-2003 03:00 AM
  
[01-1168] Me again, This is unlikely to ever leave my possession! I think it is a sauce ladle and I hope I was able to get close enough to the hallmarks to get the date and maker's marks. If I am correct, this is a London piece, dating 176768. The Leopard is crowned, the M is Germanic??. The maker's mark is worn but it could be WK - the K is correct. I am very unsure of the material used in the handle. It is not metal, I think, but possibly some very hard kind of wood. Could someone be kind enough to confirm my dates and a maker would be wonderful. Many thanks IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 07-26-2003 06:22 PM
Assuming I interpret your photos correctly - 6 enlargements of 4 marks, with the city and standard marks repeated in differrent positions - then it would appear your dating is correct. However, I cannor find a match for the maker's mark - it appears to be enlarged to a greater degree than the other marks. What is the size of that mark relative to that of the other punches? IP: Logged |
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suefromoz Posts: 58 |
posted 07-26-2003 08:39 PM
The marks that I repeated are very hard to get at with my camera - they are inside the bowl of ladle (which I have since discovered is probably for punch). I repeated them as the ones I found clearest were declared not so by other eyes here! The maker's mark is on the underside of the lip, so much easier to photo and enlarge. In reality, they would all be about the same size. My apologies for not explaining that before and thank you for clarifying the date! IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 07-27-2003 07:56 AM
The handle may be turned horn. Is the decoration possible a Victorian addition? IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 07-27-2003 10:57 AM
The more I look at this, the more I am convinced that it is not quite original. The bowl section looks like that on a punch ladle, but the handle is much too short. I would suspect that the handle is a replacement. I would love to be corrected, but I have never seen a sauce ladle shaped like this, or a punch ladle this short. Brent IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 07-27-2003 02:37 PM
I'm with you Brent - punch ladle with replaced (too short) handle. Decoration probably OK for that date, late rococoish. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 07-27-2003 02:44 PM
but note, appropo the decoration, that the hallmarks have the decoration running through them, which would not be the case if the marks were stamped after the piece was repoussed. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 07-27-2003 04:50 PM
Looking at that one "- K" maker's mark, it may be left over from an earlier piece. Some time later the ladle was cut down, enlarged, or repaired and the reposse added, with enough fiddling done to require a new assay. I wonder if some of the fluting and decoration might cover a seam where metal was added? IP: Logged |
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suefromoz Posts: 58 |
posted 07-27-2003 07:00 PM
Well this is most interesting. Horn is a good possibility for the handle. It is very smooth though and has a sort ovoid lighter part within the top. I did notice that it had some kind of roughness on the back of the bowl, where it is quite likely that a whole new handle has been added, and what I thought was a repair where the horn meets the silver. The whole ladle is 7 1/2" long, with the bowl measuring 4" x 3" x 1 1/4". So am I understanding the comments correctly so far? This is maybe a punch ladle bowl with a later replacement handle? The hallmarks have been repoussed through at a later date than the bowl was marked. But the maker's name could be older than the hallmarks. Have I got that right? I just discovered that the silver handle has initials, very faintly at the top. I M . Not a maker's mark but a personalised mark, I think. Many thanks to all for valuable comments - I am such a beginner with silver and it is super to have things said that make me go back and look again. I expect that is how most of us new folk learn! IP: Logged |
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Anuh Posts: 190 |
posted 07-28-2003 10:24 AM
quote: If the handle is horn, a hot needle applied to an edge where it won't show would give off a smell like that of burning hair. IP: Logged |
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Anuh Posts: 190 |
posted 07-28-2003 10:26 AM
quote: I have seen this shape used on pieces labeled "boiled potato ladle". From what I was told, boiled potatoes were served in their liquer to keep them hot at the table, and the double-ladle would allow the server to pour off more of the water before putting the potato on the plate. IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 730 |
posted 07-29-2003 09:52 PM
I would agree with those who have said that the handle is a replacement. Based on the size and length of the attachment area, I think this may have originally had a baleen handle. IP: Logged |
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Anuh Posts: 190 |
posted 07-30-2003 12:10 PM
quote: I don't know if I've ever seen a baleen handle, doc. What does it look like and how would you tell it from other materials? ------------------ IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 730 |
posted 07-30-2003 05:34 PM
quote: Sorry-pressed the send button too soon before. A baleen handle is one made of whale baleen (my whale anatomy is not great, so don't ask where it is on the whale!). It is similar to horn, but appears a bit more wood-like. You frequently see them for ladles like this one from England and Scotland (I have seen a couple of Irish ones as well), but the handles are much longer and thinner than the one attached here. They also frequently have twists on them. To see an example, go to ebay under antiques/silver and type in baleen. There's a ladle currently for auction with a baleen handle (I am new to this site, so I will have to figure out how to do links). IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 07-30-2003 05:43 PM
Regarding the natural history of baleen: "Baleen is a sieve-like device that Mysticeti (baleen whales) use to obtain nourishment (krill, plankton, and other small organisms). Baleen is a series of stiff, flexible material that hang from the upper jaw. The inside of the baleen is edged with hairy plates that filter krill. Baleen is made of keratin (the same substance our fingernails and hair are made of). Baleen grows throughout a whale's life. The ends of a whales baleen are always wearing out. Baleen is also called whalebone and used to be used as a plastic-like material." From this site: enchantedlearning.com IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 730 |
posted 07-30-2003 09:36 PM
quote: Thank you! IP: Logged |
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Anuh Posts: 190 |
posted 08-03-2003 12:48 PM
quote: I did a search under baleen only (with titles and descriptions both included) and came up with a multitude of examples! The very first one on the list was a carving of a Blue Whale done in baleen! Then I did a query in my online Webster's (AOL is good for a LOT of things most people don't know about! ;-D) and got the definition: a horny substance found in two rows of plates from 2 to 12 feet long attached along the upper jaws of baleen whales. This would seem to almost make it akin to ivory, and some of the ads I've encountered refer to it as "Ivory Baleen". One guy is even selling "baleen fronds" for $36.00 each. ;-D
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-03-2003 03:03 PM
As a biologist with some knowledge of the subject, I may be able to clear up some of the misconceptions on this topic Baleen is a keratinous subxtance, like hair and fingernails. Although also called whalebone, it has no relationship to bone. Although it is found in the mouth, it has no relationship to teeth, either (ivory is from teeth, usually of sperm whales, walruses, elephants, or other large mammals). Baleen is formed in plates which are composed of smaller plates of dense fibers (think of them as pressed hairs) which are at first bonded together, but which fray with time, so as to form fine clusters of hairs which the baleen whales (whales which possess baleen, rather than teeth, which toothed whales possess) utilize to filter plankton from the water (the largest animals in the sea feed only on the smallest - tons and tons of them). Baleen is dark at first, lightening only as it frays (or in old baleen, removed from the whale and exposed to light and/or the elements). There is no such thing as "ivory baleen." Baleen "carvings" are cuttings from the plates, two dimensional in form. Because of its fibrous nature, and the thinness of the plates, I would think it unlikely that (except perhaps for the smallest of objects)it could carved in three dimensions or turned successfully on a lathe. Below are two photos of portions of a baleen handle from a toddy ladle. It is formed from a square section of baleen, softened, twisted, and allowed to harden. Opposite sides of the square section would show the layered nature of the plates, while the other two sides would be uniformly fibrous. It the first of these photos, the layered nature of undisturbed baleen can be seen; in the second, the layers or tiers of fibers are beginning to separate; later on (in life), they would become frayed. IP: Logged |
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