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Georgian Spoons

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Author	Topic: Georgian Spoons
Scotia unregistered	posted 10-29-2003 11:46 AM Hi there, I recently bought 6 Georgian and 1 Victorian silver spoon. I was wondering if anyone knew who the makers are and if they were famous. The makers marks on the Georgian Spoons are as follows:WE WE, IL, GF, T.B, J.P, I.W. The victorian spoon's makers mark is JW & JW. Thanks! IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 10-29-2003 02:29 PM Without an image of each of the marks along with the accompanying town and date letter, it is nearly impossible to identify the makers. The letter style of the initial and the shape of the reserve they are in are important to help identify the maker. Many of your spoons may have a bust of the reigning regent marked on the spoon. Some spoons may not be marked with a complete set of hallmarks and that can make the identification even harder. If you can provide clear images of the marks we can do our best to help you identify them. IP: Logged
Scotia unregistered	posted 10-30-2003 07:00 AM Hi there, Here are the photos. Thanks. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-30-2003 11:12 AM The only one of these I recognize off the top of my head is WE/WF (not WE/WE) -- William Ely and William Fearn, London 1806. The others will have to be looked up (they are not all London, either - No.1 is from Exeter, 1866) IP: Logged
Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-30-2003 12:18 PM Number 1 may be James and Josiah Williams. Are the lower intials IW or a mis-struck JW?I believe they were based in Bristol but had much of their production assayed in Exeter. [This message has been edited by Patrick Vyvyan (edited 10-30-2003).] IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 10-30-2003 01:11 PM Thanks for the replies so far. The makers mark of spoon number 1 is definitely "JW&JW" IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 10-30-2003 01:11 PM It may help you to know that spoon number 1 is shaped like a shovel - a sugar or preserve spoon. Thanks IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 10-30-2003 01:48 PM I'm going to leave the attribution to those who's English library is larger than mine. I will bring to note the mark of the journeyman who marked his work under that of the master silversmith in image #4. The journeyman was a paid craftman who was sometimes allowed to mark the items he wrought. I do not know of any documentation that attributes any of these marks to specific craftsmen. Fred IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 10-30-2003 02:43 PM That's very interesting. So it would have been someone working under the main silversmith who made the spoon? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-30-2003 05:18 PM Such marks are known as "tally marks." When these were used in a shop, each journeyman had his own individual mark, which enabled the employer to keep track of each individual's output. Presumably each employing silversmith, whose own registered maker's mark is borne on each piece, had his own records of his own journeymen's marks, but there was no official registry for them, nor was there any official requirement that they be used at all. IP: Logged
shoo-shoo unregistered	posted 10-31-2003 06:03 PM I was very glad to find this question posted, as my question is related to it: I recently purchased a small spoon this marks almost identical to those shown in example #4. My spoon has a date letter of lower case "C" in the same shape shield, which was apparently a variant used on smaller items, and the makers mark is WE over WF. The makers mark is more flattened and worn than the other marks so it actually looks like WB over WP but with the B and P filled in, but now I believe it is actually WE over WF. I was going to post a question asking whether a legitimate set of English hallmarks ever omitted the town mark or not. There should be a leopard's head for London in these mark sets, but there isn't one and that made me think this might be a "fake" (although it is unlikely that anyone would take the time to fake such an insignificant piece). I saw a spoon with the same set of marks, also missing a town mark, offered on eBay and wondered if this set of marks was simply a set of psuedo hallmarks used by some early American silversmith but couldn't find the marks in any book on American marks. So, back to the question: Did they often leave off the town mark or leave any other mark off? Which marks are most often missing? I just didn't expect the town/assay mark to be the missing mark. Thanks for any explanations anyone can provide. quote: Originally posted by swarter: Such marks are known as "tally marks." When these were used in a shop, each journeyman had his own individual mark, which enabled the employer to keep track of each individual's output. Presumably each employing silversmith, whose own registered maker's mark is borne on each piece, had his own records of his own journeymen's marks, but there was no official registry for them, nor was there any official requirement that they be used at all. IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-31-2003 06:44 PM Shoo shoo :- if you look at the postings on this forum for 'Mystery silver tongs', the same question was asked, and answered, about the missing town mark. [This message has been edited by adelapt (edited 10-31-2003).] IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-31-2003 10:26 PM Number 4 has London marks for 1817 (the date mark has an alternate shield shape sometimes used during this and previous cycles, rather than the one usually shown in the tables). The maker's mark appears to be that of John Lias, entered in 1812 (Grimwade #1464). IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-31-2003 10:51 PM Number 5 is by George Ferris, Exeter, 1812/13 IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 11-01-2003 10:06 AM Thanks for all the info. Any ideas about numbers 2,6,7? The monarch's head on 7 looks different from the others. IP: Logged
feniangirl Posts: 36 Registered: Mar 2002	posted 12-17-2003 04:10 AM I believe: #2 to be James Wintle, London. Registered 1812, as a spoonmaker. The spoon would then date to 1816. #6 to be Thomas Barker, London. Registered 1805, as a spoonmaker. Added a mark with a pellet in 1811. This would date the spoon to 1814-15. #7 to be James Payne, London. Registered 1824, as a spoonmaker. This would date this spoon to 1830-31, making it William IV, instead of Georgian IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 01-09-2004 11:19 AM Many Thanks feniangirl. IP: Logged

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