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posted 12-13-2003 03:31 PM            

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We picked these up thinking that they might make for some discussion/fun:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 

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posted 12-15-2003 06:25 PM            

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Well, nobody's rising to the bait - so let me ask what is it that you intend? Obviously these are not your usual Whatzits, since they are obviously teaspoons, so are they intended to be Whozits, Whenzits, Wherezits or two or more of the above?

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posted 12-15-2003 06:58 PM            

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My clients rarely come to me with Irish silver. So Irish silver is not area of silver I embrace very often. The spoons were just there in a dealer friends case, so June and I picked them up just thinking this forum participants might find something to discuss. We haven't had the time to crack open a single reference, so we haven't any idea. If they are not of interest and prove to be a distraction then please accept my sincere apologies.

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posted 12-15-2003 07:39 PM            

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Actually, these are of interest -- I thought in view of your recent string of "Whatzits" you might have something else in mind, like a game of Dublin or Nothing," and was just trying to be humorous. Sorry - Sounds like I am punchy from too much holiday punch!

The second and third are pretty straightforward. The second is Dublin, 1811, and the third, Dublin, 1830. The cycle that runs from 1821 to 1845 is unusual in that the outlines of the punches are not at all consistant; for example, these shield shapes for the harp and the soverign's head were used in 1830 only. The order of marks in both spoons is also inconsistant - the Dublin office must not have been as persnickity as the English offices.

The first spoon is, obviously, incompletely marked, and could not be dated exactly, unless the maker's mark, which looks rather crude, had a short tenure. There is some similarity in the letter forms in the maker's mark to those on the third spoon. If, on the other hand, it is not from Dublin, it is possible the spoon could be provincial, and not Irish at all.

I have not had a chance to try to find the makers of any of these spoons yet (Whenzits now, Whozits maybe later). I donot have an up-to-date reference for Irish makers - the tables in Jackson III were not revised from the previous edition. Perhaps someone else could contribute these.

Note the rattail on the third spoon - these went out of style elsewhere well before the adoption of the fiddle style, but the Irish continued to use them. Rattails look out of place on fiddle handled spoons, as they are seldom seen other than on Irish made spoons.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 12-15-2003).]

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posted 12-15-2003 10:10 PM            

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Very interesting. I look forward to hearing what our other forum participants may have as input about the makers. I like the "Dublin or Nothing" idea, it sounds like it could be fun.

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posted 12-17-2003 05:43 AM            

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#1 was made in Dublin by Samuel Neville, who was registered in 1796. And would date to 1806 (even without a date mark it is often time possible to date Dublin silver by the crowned harp). It is not at all provincial - Irish provincial silver is not stamped with either a crowned harp or Hibernia.
#2 was made in Dublin by James Keating and Richard Flood, registered 1811 and the spoon was made in 1811.
#3 was also made by Samuel Neville. It is hallmarked for Dublin 1830, after the death of George IV, as it has a William IV duty mark. The close-up of the hallmarks has a reflection, making it impossible to see the harp and the space between it and the maker's mark. Also the damage from the scratch or crease makes it difficult to tell what the mark to left of Hibernia is. It could be an apprentice mark or it could be the remnants of a former hallmark which has been overstamped.

I am rather surprised that there is rarely any mention of Irish silver on this site as it is of much better design and superior quality to British or American silver. Is it is because of the rarity and cost of Irish silver compared to English and American silver?

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posted 12-17-2003 12:19 PM            

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Welcome to the British Forum, Feniangirl, and thank you for the input on this and other postings! Perhaps your participation will stimulate more discussion of Irish silver. I imagine Scott's posting of these spoons was intended to do just that, and it seems to have worked!

I believe the crescent-shaped mark to the left of Hibernia on the third spoon most likely is a tally mark for a journeyman, or as you suggest, an apprentice..

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 12-17-2003).]

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posted 12-17-2003 08:12 PM            

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I for one would love more discussion on Irish silver, as it is my collecting passion, so bring it on!

I'll start with a question. I have a ewer made by Richard Sawyer of Dublin. The base of it is slightly wobbly, presumably from having been pressed down during polishing. It was a present from my Irish grandmother, another avid silver collector, so I doubt I'd ever sell it, but I wonder whether it is worthwhile to have this fixed?

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posted 12-18-2003 09:55 AM            

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Well, Doc, I'm glad to see another person who shares my passion. As for having the ewer your gran gave you fixed, personally, I'd be very careful,as there are few silversmiths that could do this restoration properly. While any type of fault will lower the value, improper restoration could lower it even more.

You might consider contacting Jimmy Weldon (WeldonsofDublin.com
email - antiques@weldonsofdublin.com ). He is one of, if not THE, world's leading authorities on Irish silver. He could probably advise you of the best direction with reference to the ewer and probably could recommend someone to do restoration, if that's the road you decide to take.

How long have you been collecting? What particular period, if any are you interested in? Any exciting finds? Where do you normally find your silver? What references are you using? I only know one other person that is into Irish silver, so it's good to find another!

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posted 12-18-2003 04:46 PM            

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As I understand it, the most problematical repairs are those that involve soldering - the melting point of silver solder is close to that of the metal itself, and an inexperienced or careless worker can melt the metal and ruin a piece; repair with solders with lower melting points is safer, but wiill result in discoloration and thus be obvious.

On the other hand, I have been impressed with what can be done with bent, dented, creased, and even twisted hollowware by an experienced trained smith. Unless your ewer has a narrow neck which would block access to the inside, it does not sound as if the wobble would be a major problem. If it displays without showing damage, you could skip the repair and just shim the bottom by resting the high part on a piece of folded paper, modeling clay, or some such, to steady it; if there is significant lean or tilt, or if it really bothers tou, you might want to have someone qualified look at it to judge the feasibility of repairs. Fred Zweig ("Fredz") is a regular participant in these forums and is a skilled silversmith - you could send him a picture or two showing the damage, and I am sure he would be more than happy to render an opinion.

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posted 12-18-2003 05:38 PM            

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Thanks feniangirl and wev for the information. I would like to get it fixed if not cost prohibitive, as it does wobble, and it has sentimental value in addition to potential monetary value.

Feniangirl, I'd be happy to chat via email about our respective passion-tough stuff to find, but such a pleasure when you do! My profile has my email.

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posted 12-21-2003 07:34 AM              

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Feniangirl has ascribed #1 to a maker registered in 1796 and to a probable date of 1806. A good clue is the absence of the George Head which did not appear on Dublin Plate until the Act of 1807.

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posted 12-21-2003 12:03 PM            

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Hi, Doc and Feniangirl. We're really happy that you two found each other in the Silver Salon Forums. As I was reading this thread I thought to myself "That's exactly what we want to happen; folks of a like interest having a vehicle to find each other and share." We hope, though, that you won't keep all of your Irish silver chats to yourselves. Please share with the rest of us your passion. We want to learn and share in the fun too

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