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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 Brit Quality Control
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| Author | Topic: Brit Quality Control |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 02-20-2005 06:39 PM
  
Here's a rainy Sunday afternoon general question on British legal and guild control over weight quality of sterling items produced by journeymen. Of course, the silver content of sterling stamped items was heavily regulated and violators subject to serious penalites. But what about other aspects of quality and workmanship? I note that British sterling of the Georgian era was generally of good workmanship and substantial weight, as opposed to American productions in the same time frame, which were all over the map, particularly with respect to very lightly constructed items made for, I imagine, quite limited budgets. As an example, my morning coffee mixing spoon is an unmarked American fiddle pattern teaspoon c.1840 which, besides having my initials on it contemporary with manufacture, is more remarkable to others in that it has survived in remarkable condition, being so thin that it could easily be wadded up by hand into ball of scrap, had one the desire to do so (the upside is that it absorbs very little heat from the morning cup of kickstart!). I can't remember seeing similarly thin Brit-marked sterling flatware. That said, I just acquired a thirteen inch old English pattern soup ladle that is top marked for London, 1781-2, maker John Lambe (mark registered 1783 per Wyler? - oh, well). What is remarkablw here is that this ladle weighs only about 4.1 troy ounces, and yet is in excellent condition, with a few quite small dinks in the bowl bottom, hardly noticeable, and perhaps a monogram removal. The stem is reasonably substantial, but the finial and the bowl on this ladle are quite thin, seemingly out of place for a Brit produced item. Were there guild regulations as to how light in weight sterling items could be made yet still be of acceptable quality? IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 02-20-2005 07:47 PM
My understanding is that the hallmark laws were solely concerned with the standard of the metal, and the qualification of the person who submitted items to be hallmarked (and the assayers too it must be said). That stated, there were concerns about the excessive use of solder (of a lower standard than sterling/britannia) being used to "load" objects. It seems to have been left to the market to sort out matters of standards of workmanship, but in general it seems to have been a pretty discerning market. People were well aware of what was shoddy, and valued the 'heft' which both reflected upon the owner and the actual value of the object. We also shouldn't overlook the thinning down of objects which have suffered a couple of hundred years of use and wear and polishing. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 02-20-2005 08:27 PM
Sunny, dry and cold, just went for the years first bike ride, before tonights snow storm... I wish I knew when Goldsmiths stopped being the arbiter !700's when London and the trade were growing beyond its borders and it might have been difficult to go to Fred and tell him he had awful stuff, when you did not even know Fred. This is all post endorphin musing (sorry), but what I do know from expirience is that in the later quarter of the last century they did not give a toss! I never saw it, but maybe there was some real piece of ill begotten beginer mistake that, what with a solder join that gave way when it was marked, perhaps went back unmarked. But in 4 years of standing in the que at the hall I saw , as they say, some pretty "naff" (sp?) articles that bore a full set of her Majesty's marks (oh please, I do not know if they are the City of London's, or whose?). These included the above mentioned begining travesties, including my own, and things like any piece of silver one could get your hands on to get a jubilee mark wacked into it, as well as a certain "modern art school designer" who made the Prince of Wales investiture crown. Or another who made minature silver versions of his huge abstract welded scrap sculpture from smiths sterling scrap he bought from the bullion dealer. More seriously the hall would turn back the sub standard sterling and something if it was unrecognisable so there was a line, but not aesthetically. As to weight, my impression is that it is purely a matter of money. If you could afford good heavy silver, you got it. The challenge was at the other end of cost, where the techniques and refining of the smiths craft to make those thin objects was developed over centuries. Like spoons or gadrooning which I think was used as a strengthener for sheet long befor the use of cast soldered on wire. I look forward to an education on the past, to know when the guilds went from guardian of the mysteries of the craft to bullion weighers, scrapers and bashers! It was so relaxing to come to the US after England and just slap on any old thing of a mark, anytime during the making and not have to clean up the scars of the scraping and/or wait a week or more for it. [This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 02-20-2005).] IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 02-20-2005 09:45 PM
Thanks for the inspiring responses so far! Note the two items I described in particular are remarkable not for years of polishing, but for their lack of wear, as normal wear in keeping with their age would have long ago rendered them toothpicks or scrap. They are both from their birth the sterling equivalent of Twiggy! (Am I dating myself?) OTOH I observe the French c.1810+ soup ladle of which I recently wrote in another post, weighing a beefy nine troy ounces, and which could well double as a battle mace, though generally in good condition, its bowl dings bear mute testimony to its likely participation in the Battle of Waterloo when the gunpowder gave out. I can just hear the riflemen being given the fearsome hand-to-hand combat command, "Fix ladles!!!" BTW, still threatening to rain bigtime here, but has held off for many hours, teasing mayhem. Agleopar, happy you got in a ride (I have a broken wrist that still is keeping me off the trails), but your reply has me wondering what "proof" your endorphins are, and whether you wanna share. Ha, ha! (Note: question on toddy ladles to follow!!!)  [This message has been edited by nihontochicken (edited 02-20-2005).] IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 02-20-2005 11:22 PM
Hot toddies, I hope, its started snowing. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 02-21-2005 05:48 PM
The crown, which regulated coinage, would have been concerened with silver content alone, since household items were converted to coin and vice versa. Quality would have been the domail of guilds or "halls" (hence the term hallmark). They decline in the early modern period and all but disappeared by the industrial revolution. The transition would period would have been 17-18th c. Tom IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 02-22-2005 03:00 PM
IMHO, I think you're off-base to imagine that quality equates to heft. An object of greater weight than necessary is a sign of poor quality, not good. The craftman's finest art is to minimize weight without compromising utility or aesthetics. An overweight piece is an emblem of excess and, as such, appeals only to those who revel in excess, not the true connoisseur. [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 02-23-2005).] [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 02-23-2005).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 02-22-2005 03:44 PM
It was a dark and stormy day here yesterday and a good one to start reading Old Plate, Ecclesiastical, Decorative, and Domestic: Its Makers and Marks, by J.H. Buck, published by The Gorham Manufacturing Company in 1888. One of Mr. Buck's comments was:
IP: Logged |
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