SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate.

Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look.

How to Post Photos

Want to be a Moderator?
customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  British / Irish Sterling
tline3open  Marriage Spoon 18th Century?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Marriage Spoon 18th Century?
Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 03-23-2005 01:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[08-0302]

Hi there,

I bought this tablespoon as being London around 1760. I looked up "J.L" and came up with John Lampfert. However on closer inspection of the marks, all four of them are identical - "J.L", no duty mark, lion, assay stamp, nothing. Hmmmm...Is it possible the spoon is by John Lampfert but he was duty dodging or is it possibly a provincial piece, with the makers mark being stamped 4 times. The stem is also very thick at about 1cm at its thickest. The other thing about it was the crest, which is a lion with "M + W" below it. Does this mean it was a love token or marriage spoon??

IP: Logged

swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 03-23-2005 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Crest would represent the original owner. The two initials in all probability are first and last initials of a single, subsequent owner.

The spoon could well be a duty dodger; the closing of the latter three punches implies an intent to render them illegible, in imitation of an earlier period when marks so placed were regularly obscured by after assay finishing of softer Britannia Standard silver that had been distorted by the marking process. Search this forum for "duty dodger," and you should find at least two other examples similar to yours, one put up by labarbedor, and one by myself.

IP: Logged

Patrick Vyvyan

Posts: 640
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 03-23-2005 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Vyvyan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm wondering if the maker may be John Luff - both marks are very similar, however the top of Lampfert's L just curls over, while Luff's L doubles back through the stem.

Interestingly enough, though, Lampfert appears to have avoided paying tax on a pair of cream ladles which are marked twice only with his initials. These can be seen at www.bexfield.co.uk

IP: Logged

Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 03-23-2005 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the info. Had a look at the other posts and I see it's the same kind of thing. The mark does look like that of John Luff, although it lacks the crown on top of the stamp, although the top of the "L" does go back through the stem. So would the date then be 1740's / 1750's? Does this kind of dodging detract from the value of the piece? For me personally, it makes it a more interesting spoon - it didn't cost much and has become a nice addition to my collection, but I would like to know in case I was spending larger amounts of money on such items. (Hope I'm not breaking the guidelines here)

[This message has been edited by Scotia (edited 03-23-2005).]

IP: Logged

Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 03-24-2005 10:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the period c.1739-1781 (when the marks of London made pieces move to the 'top' of the spoon) is is surprisingly common to find pieces by established and (apparently) respectable spoon makers marked thus, makers mark four times - often just one popped into a set of six.

Apart from saving Tax, which wasn't so much of an issue in this period (there is NO DUTY between 1758 and 1784!), it also saved the necessity of paying to have the piece assayed.

If you are processing tens of thousands of spoons, introducing, say 5% of untried ones with just the maker's mark saves quite a bit of money.

I haven't done it but I do wonder whether these maker's mark four times pieces are indeed .925 sterling? - it would be an interesting exercise to test a bunch!
I think that this makes your spoon MORE interesting as it adds another angle to the story!

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2022 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices