George I Marrow Scoop 1715 Makers Mark Query

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George I Marrow Scoop 1715 Makers Mark Query

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Author	Topic: George I Marrow Scoop 1715 Makers Mark Query
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 07-07-2005 10:51 AM Hi there, My marrow scoop arrived and it is George I, 1715. Everything looks right except it lacks a makers mark. Well, there is evidence of another mark just above the bowl, so perhaps this is the remainder of the makers mark? The thing I thought was strange was the positioning of the marks. There is a notable gap between Britannia and The Lion erased. Is this gap anything to worry about? The scoop is a heavy piece with the crest of a Stag above a crown with an arrow through the front of its neck. The closest I have come to identifying the crest is Davidson, but I can't find a picture to compare. Does anyone recognize the crest? I think it is a later addition, but it would be interesting to identify. IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 07-07-2005 12:27 PM Do you see any solder joints anywhere? Any evidence of buffing? The reason I ask, a lot of marrow scoops on the market are actually conversions from tablespoons. The marks are genuine, but the piece may not have started life as a marrow scoop. That would account for the missing mark. Take a good look at your piece and see if there is any evidence of tampering. Brent IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 07-07-2005 02:31 PM Hi, I have scrutinised it and can find no solder marks, joins or repairs. I have had a look through a loupe at the small mark nearest the bowl and it does look like it was a makers mark. All that's left is like a little mark you often see above the initials like a star, dot, crown, etc. So assuming this was a makers mark, would the gap still be odd? The entire length is 9". IP: Logged
asheland Posts: 935 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 07-08-2005 02:22 AM I would not worry about the spacing and/or order of the hallmarks. They were all applied separately and I have seen them in all different arrangements and spacing. What Brent said is the most important, if there are no signs of tampering, you should be fine. Nice piece! asheland IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 07-08-2005 05:16 AM Thanks for the replies. That's put me at ease. It is a great piece, my oldest piece of silver yet. IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 07-08-2005 06:06 AM Your scoop looks very nice. Can you post a picture of the WHOLE of the back, and maybe even a detail of the crest and the wide end back near the tip? IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 07-08-2005 09:47 AM Hi there, Here are some more pics. I have tried searching internet searching for George I marrow scoops, but I'm not coming up with much. I noticed that there is no apparent join between the bowl and the stem like you get on tablespoons. Is this normal? i.e. it looks like it is all crafted from one piece of silver. It weighs 66.8 grams, just over 2 troy ounces. Does the shape conform to the date, as I noticed some of the early examples are marrow spoons with much larger bowls? I have also noticed in between the hallmarks are two tiny patches which are dicoloured, like the mark it leaves when you acid test something, a deeper shade of grey. They are parallel to the edges of the stem and don't cross the stem so I don't think they are join marks. They are both irregular in shape, the largest about 4mm by 1mm. IP: Logged
asheland Posts: 935 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 07-08-2005 03:20 PM You mention where the bowl meets the handle, I assume you mean the drop. I have seen, on the earlier marrow scoops and even the early forks didn't have drops. I believe that only the spoons had them. Yes, it would have been made with one single piece of silver, even the ones with drops were made from a single bar of silver. Your marrow scoop, from the pictures, looks to be in great shape. asheland IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 07-10-2005 11:08 AM It's the great condition that makes me wonder about this piece, unfortunately. The crest seems appropriate, but there is some thing about the overall shape of the piece that gives me pause. I recently encounted a made-up marrow scoop, so maybe I am over sensitive. Still, a marrow scoop is something I wouild want to see in person before purchasing. The English have been fiddling with things for hundreds of years, and one should always deal with trusted sources when laying out significant amounts of money for English silver. Brent IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 07-10-2005 04:25 PM I usually think that I can tell from photographs.. especially ones as good as those that you have posted. The shape and weight are good. I would like to know how tapered the larger scoop is from where it leaves the center to about 1/2" from the tip? - early ones are usually more parallel than their later counterparts. The spacing of the marks is neither good nor bad. The absence of a maker's mark is worrying (there MUST have been one originally) - could there be a repair of some sort where the maker';s mark may have been? (Have you tried blowing on the back and seeing if anything shows up under the condensation? The crest is in the right place, but is in a style that must be at least 50 years later it looks o.k. for 1765-1810 in the photograph but can't be sure. The tip at the back SHOULD show wear and tear (after all these things were used!) and the lack of apparent patination worries me (This could just be the result of recent over polishing). I appreciate that none of this is very helpful - your marrow scoop is a perfect example of a piece which has to be seen and handled to give a sure opinion. Even then you may well be faced with differing views from so called experts! If the whole topic was black and white none of us would like it so much!! IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-10-2005 06:25 PM I agree with SilverLyon that the place to look most carefully is the point where you think there may have been a maker's mark, just below the bowl. The small hole/pit that can be seen may be evidence of a break where the original maker's mark was struck, but which was filled with solder in the (maybe very old) repair job. This is the most vulnerable point of the structure as far as leverage when in use goes. But as S/L also said, it is one of those things where to handle it is pretty necessary (and maybe with still no guarantee of perfect judgement). IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-10-2005 11:17 PM The small pit that Adelapt points out is flanked by a couple of others; as he implies, these may have been made by air bubbles in a solder joint - silver solder would not show a dark line. The year 1715 is well within the period when full rat-tails were being used; I would question the presence of a drop at this early date (unless someone else has encountered a spoon from this period with a drop). In addition, early marrow scoops (as distinguished from marrow spoons, which appeared a bit earlier) are said to have parallel sided bowls with blunt tips, rather than the later tapered bowls with rounded ends. I do not know when marrow scoops first appeared, but Eric Delieb, in his book Investing in Silver shows a Queen Anne marrow scoop with bowl as described above and it lacks a drop altogether (it also has the bowls facing opposite sides). It would seem that there is a possibility that someone has added a bowl from a later scoop to the stem of an earlier spoon, and further modified the handle into a narrow scoop. Another possibility is that a damaged bowl on an early scoop was replaced with a bowl from a later one. An analysis of the silver content of both ends would be interesting, but probably impractical - can you detect a slight color or texture difference between the bowl and stem? [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 07-10-2005).] IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 07-12-2005 03:33 PM Just a little hint to try to see any evidence of solder, Silver Lyon's hint was to blow on the suspect area, but where this might work in cool damp England it may be futile in Scottsdale, AZ. Another way is to take tissue paper (white for wraping) and lay it over the area. This will often bring out any solder or fire scale that can be hard to see, good luck. IP: Logged
Scotia Posts: 125 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 07-14-2005 12:30 PM Hi there, I have looked very closely and the top part appears the same colour as the bottom. There is a taper to the larger part of the bowl. The pit mark I mentioned is very small and there is no discoloration from the surrounding silver. The pit mark is a small circle with three points and it appears symmetrical. The width of the large bowl is 0.75" tapering to about 0.5". The length of the bowl is 3.25". The length of the narrower bowl is 3.5" and is 3/8" wide. Here are some more pics: IP: Logged

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