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Tea Caddy Spoon by WO, but from where?

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Author	Topic: Tea Caddy Spoon by WO, but from where?
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 04-23-2006 11:48 AM Here is an odd item, the result of a too hasty purchase. (We all make them!) Anyway, it is a tea caddy spoon with a cast handle attached to a wrought bowl. My first thought was that it was a nice English Arts & Crafts period piece, as the handle has the appearance of hand work (if not actual), and it looks like others I have seen. However, the marks are neither English nor Irish, despite the lion passant and the harp. I'm guessing it might be Canadian, or perhaps a complete fake; can anyone help? Brent IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-23-2006 12:57 PM Brent, I am inclined to say they are forged marks. What bothers me most is the soverign head. Since it faces left, it should be Victoria, but the shape an hair differ from any picture or hallmark I have seen. I am also wondering why anyone would add the wrong harp punch for the period and include no date letter. Just some thoughts. Tom IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 Registered: Apr 93	posted 04-23-2006 01:22 PM Are the marks struck or cast? In the photo it looks like the marks were cast. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-23-2006 02:59 PM Actually, King George did face left (his right) on Dublin silver of the 1820's, but a lion passant hallmark should never appear, so it is obvious that these are pseudohallmarks, but whose? Possibly Chinese export -- the prolific Wongshing comes to mind -- but Forbes shows only a W mark, and not a WO for him. Page (Silver Magazine 4, 2004) lists a WO (Wo Hing, 1830-50, or Wing On, 1880-1940) but does not list these pseudohalolmarks marks along with WO, nor does he list a harp mark for anyone. So, either it is unrecorded, or from somewhere else. IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-23-2006 03:41 PM Swarter, I never noticed that George IV does indeed face left! William IV faces right, and Victoria left. Thanks for pointing this out. Any idea why Irish sovreign marks differ in this respect from their English counterparts? Tom IP: Logged
salmoned Posts: 336 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 04-24-2006 01:17 AM I don't believe there is much value in these ideas, but I'll offer 'em anyhoo. I would imagine the crowned harp is really a crowned letter per the sheffield small article marks, and that it and the duty mark were disfigured at some point, perhaps beyond recognition (due to a remarriage?). Okay, a wild stab, especially since the duty mark is so similar to the one pictured in Jackson's Appendix I for Dublin 1827-8 or the vertical marks for 1826-7. In fact, I may have reconsidered... [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 04-24-2006).] IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 04-24-2006 08:22 AM On my way traveling again, so I won't be able to follow up, but a possibility to pursue: William O'Brien of Baron Strand Street, Waterford, entered 1807 (according to Bennett). I haven't handled much Irish provincial silver, but could that account for the deviations from the norm? IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 04-24-2006 05:55 PM Thank you for all of the input! I think Scott may be right; the marks appear to be part of the casting, rather than struck. If that is the case, I would lean towards it being a fake. One would think that a faker would attempt to replicate an actual mark, though! The lion passant and the harp just shouldn't appear together on any English or Irish silver. Unless the intent was to replicate a colonial or even Chinese export mark. I'm afraid this little rascal raises more questions every time I consider it! Brent IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-24-2006 08:18 PM That still leaves my question, why to the soverign heads on real Irish silver differ from those on English? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-24-2006 09:10 PM Unfortunately, the spoon has been heavily buffed, as evidenced by the streaks from the last mark, which result from silver polish building up in the reserve and feeding into the buffing wheel. This makes it difficult to determine if the marks were blurred from casting, but they look to me (as much as you can tell from the photo) still too well defined to have been cast, although I will admit I have little experience with castings. This issue tends to distract from the question of what the marks represent, as, even if cast, the original must have been genuine -- and why bother to duplicate a fake? As to Tom's question re the George head mark, I can't answer that, and I haven't had time to try to find out. IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-25-2006 09:53 PM "...even if cast, the original must have been genuine..." Can you be sure about that? And of course, genuine what? It's an interesting problem and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of it! IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-25-2006 10:27 PM quote: And of course, genuine what? And that is the $64 question. I don't know what. I remember reading about Jacobean bowl decorations on English spoons. Could this be a political statement by someone not in favor of Irish independence? Or maybe one in favor of it? When you are grasping at straws you have to think of all possibilities. Or how about a prankster in one of the assay offices? Some real wild ones are reputed to have come out of the U.S. Mint! [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 04-25-2006).] IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 04-27-2006 11:47 AM I would look at Chinese export also. The second letter could be a Q and the name could be something like Wang Quing, tho I regrettably don't have a Forbes to check IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 05-23-2006 12:44 PM I have been waiting, hoping in my cowardly way that someone would save me from writing this, but alas! (my first attempt to post a comment vanished!) This spoon is part of a group of new 'old style' caddy spoons, made in China and distributed carefully through provincial auctions etc. both in USA and UK. The ones I have seen are electro-formed (silver deposited using electricity into moulds) although I have heard of cast examples. The marks seem to have been 'lifted' from genuine pieces, deliberately a bit of this and a bit of that so that the distributor can claim that they represent nothing, and the novice collector can be foxed into thinking that he has found something! It is very boring when people do this sort of thing, as it muddies the water for everyone. IP: Logged
salmoned Posts: 336 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 05-23-2006 06:48 PM Bravo! Mystery solved, though a sad and sordid tale it be... IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 05-25-2006 11:19 AM Thanks for the information! As I said, it was one of those "buy in haste, repent at leisure" situations. If I had thought about it long enough, and had really looked at it closely, the problems would have been obvious. I did buy two great authentic items along with this piece, though, so on the whole I came out ahead:-). Thanks again for your expertise. I guess we should all be on the alert for similar items! Brent IP: Logged

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