armorial engraving on 18th c english salver

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armorial engraving on 18th c english salver

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Author	Topic: armorial engraving on 18th c english salver
hubbardcourt Posts: 7 Registered: Oct 2005	posted 10-26-2005 07:48 PM [26-0736] Hi, I have an English salver dating to 1767. The engraving has a picture of a beehive with 13 bees around the hive. I am wondering whether this engraving has anything to do with the 13 colonies. Thanks david IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 10-27-2005 12:28 PM Anything is possible. But if it were related to to American colonies - to which family would the coat of arms have been granted? At that time the colonies were pretty independent of each other so it doesn't make much sense to me that a person would have been granted an armorial that focused on all of them together. I can think of other explanations that require less gymnastics to explain it. One is that the person to whom it was awarded was descended in some way to the large Merovingian family whose symbol was the bee. They were the ruling family in France for a long time. Much of France was often part of England depending on the point in time. Another possible explanation might be that it is an indirect reference to a relationship of the recipient of the armorial to the Knights Templar who were wiped out on a Friday the 13th in the early 1300s. Or it may be based in the obvious religious reference to the number 13 (the last supper), or it might be related to the number of children that the recipient of the coat of arms had in his family, or it might be some other significance of 13 to the recipient in terms of property owned or people who were somehow beholding to the original recipient. IP: Logged
hubbardcourt Posts: 7 Registered: Oct 2005	posted 10-27-2005 12:51 PM hi kimo, thanks for your reply. as you might surmise i have very little knowledge in this area. do you know of any research materials which can be used to trace coats of arms? my quick efforts with google did not produce anything useful. also, are all engravings of this type necessarily coats of arms, or are some engravings done 'just because'? thanks david IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 10-27-2005 02:11 PM There are books of arms you can find in larger libraries sometimes. I would think that the definitive place to ask, though, would be the College of Arms in London. They are the official keepers of the records of all coats of arms that have ever been granted by the English crown. I don't know whether they might charge you a research fee, though. Here is a link to their website: College of Arms Rules on using coats of arms on things depends on where you live. If you were in England or its dominions when your salver was made, there were penalties for using a coat of arms if you were not entitled to it. If you lived elsewhere, you could do as you pleased. IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 10-27-2005 03:05 PM David, I did a quick Internet search between innings of the Sox game (yes, I am from Chicago, although the North side). The beehive is a very common heraldic image used to signify industry. I can be found on numerous coats of arms and crests of towns and cities. I could not find an exact match. A company, family, town, etc. could have created their own symbol or it could be one granted by a monarch centuries ago. Good luck, Tom IP: Logged
hubbardcourt Posts: 7 Registered: Oct 2005	posted 10-27-2005 04:01 PM Kimo, Thanks for the link. I will follow up with it and see what I can find. Tom, Yes, I had found something to that effect, 'busy as a bee'. Congrats on the sox. Glad they were white and not red. I grew up rooting for the boys from the bronc... Thanks david IP: Logged
Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-27-2005 11:05 PM From A GLOSSARY OF TERMS USED IN HERALDRY by JAMES PARKER, FIRST PUBLISHED in 1894, available on-line at http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/index.htm Bee-hive, (fr. ruche): this device was granted to a Cheshire family named ROWE during the Commonwealth, but was afterwards also granted to several other families. Both the bee and the bee-hive appear as crests. Argent, a bee-hive, beset with bees diversely volant sable--ROWE. Argent, a bee-hive, beset with bees volant proper--TREWEEK, Cornwall. Argent, on a bee-hive sable a hart lodged argent, attired or--SANDELLAYER, Stafford. So I too doubt that the number of bees is significant. Here is the Rowe arms: IP: Logged
hubbardcourt Posts: 7 Registered: Oct 2005	posted 10-31-2005 09:55 AM Hi Patrick, Thanks for the info, much appreciated. David IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 10-31-2005 10:46 AM The thing about the granting of a coat of arms is that there is no single correct way to depict the coat of arms beyond the official heraldic description. So long as you hold true to the that description, there are an infinite number of ways to depict it. For example, in the first one Patrick mentions, Argent, a bee-hive, beset with bees diversely volant sable, what this is saying is that to be correct, all you need do is to have a silver bee-hive with some black bees flying around it. You can portray the hive in any way pleasing to you and the number of bees can be any amount so long as it is more than one. In the second one, Argent, a bee-hive, beset with bees volant proper, all you need there is a silver beehive with a number of naturally colored bees flying around it. Again, it can be any number so long as it is more than one and they can be arranged in any way so long as they are flying around the hive. There is another clue on the armorial on the plate in question - and that is the crest. The crest is the design that is placed on top of the coat of arms. In this case it is a stag trippant. The crest should be used with the coat of arms to narrow it down to the individual to whom it was granted. IP: Logged

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