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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 British / Irish Sterling
 Is this silver buckle really 18th Century American?
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| Author | Topic: Is this silver buckle really 18th Century American? |
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Leeberko Posts: 7 |
posted 06-19-2005 03:30 PM
  
[26-0498] Hello, I thank you in advance for whatever help I can get with this. The things one finds in a box lot at auction... :-) I've been doing a bunch of research on this item, and think that I know what it is, but would appreciate either correction or confirmation. Thanks. Lee It is approx. 1 3/4 inches wide by 2 1/2 inches - following the curve. 2 1/4 inches straight across the back. The center pieces are steel or iron, the rest is silver. There are 2 marks - a lion passant and a maker's mark "I . S". The dot is in the middle of the space between the I and the S (vertically as well as horizontally). The On the back cover of "The Magazine Antiques" from December, 1942 is an add from Shreve, Crump, and Low advertising a similar pair. That pair stated as being from 1944, by John In the book "American Silver" by Graham Hood a gold example is shown a similar example made out of gold. This one is stated as being by Joseph Richardson, 1740 - 50. In "American Silversmiths and Their Marks II", by Stephen G. C. Ensko, the same or very similar mark is shown as having been used by I. Smith (probably for Joseph, from what I've been learning) from 1742 - 1789, when he died. A similar mark was used by John Stuart out of Providence, R.I., who died in 1737. While it is hard for me to tell for sure, it seems that the J. Smith attribution is more likely. In "American Silversmiths and Their Marks", by Stephen G. C. Ensko, the same or very similar mark is shown as having been used by I. Smith specifically in 1742. I would take the Book II statements as being a correction on this, and a widening of the dates of use. In their book "A directory of American Silver, Pewter, and Silver Plate", the Kovels also show Jonathan Sarrazin, out of Charleston, S. C. c1754-1761) and John Syng c1738? out of both Philadelphia (c 1734) and Wilmington, De. (c1772?). In "Old Silver: English, American, Foreign" by Seymour B. Wyler, he also shows the Joseph Smith mark with the dot and gives the dates of 1742 - 1789. Since the first Ensko book and the Wyler book both show the "I S" mark with a dot in the middle, as is the case here, that is the one I feel is most likely. But I do appreciate any input. I've never had a piece of American silver this old, and am more than a little excited at the prospect. IP: Logged |
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Scotia Posts: 125 |
posted 06-19-2005 06:06 PM
Hi there, I would think the buckle is English and Georgian in date. IP: Logged |
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Leeberko Posts: 7 |
posted 06-19-2005 06:13 PM
Thank you for the input. How does one tell the difference between English and American silver then? And why doesn't it have the full set of English marks (city and date are both missing.) I'm not doubting your thinking, just trying to learn more. I have a lot to learn on this subject! Thank you. Lee IP: Logged |
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Silver Lyon Posts: 363 |
posted 06-19-2005 07:04 PM
Before 1784, when he King's head duty mark became nesessary - essentially all London made smaller pieces were marked in addition to the maker's (or sponsor's) mark ONLY with the 'sterling' lion that showed that the piece had been tested and came up to the required standard of purity - the most obvious examples are teaspoons and sugar tongs, also the top sockets of candlesticks and the handles of knives there are many other examples especially buckles. For a detailed response, you will have to wait for Clive Taylor - in the meantime I would suggest that your buckle is made by John Stocker, in London c.1780. To put your mind at rest, it is highly unusual for London-style pseudo lion passants to appear on colonial silver from ANYWHERE before 1800 (there is nothing wrong with this lion he is the real LONDON thing!). Hope this helps!  IP: Logged |
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Leeberko Posts: 7 |
posted 06-19-2005 07:25 PM
That is certainly interesting information. I certainly don't doubt you - but I also remember seeing tongs and spoons and such with a full set of marks. Maybe they were from a later period and my brain is fuzzy? Could be... Lee IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 |
posted 06-19-2005 08:48 PM
Welcome to the forums. Are you researching this for business purposes? If yes then please re-review the SSF Guidelines IP: Logged |
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Leeberko Posts: 7 |
posted 06-19-2005 09:47 PM
I am trying to learn what I have. The idea that I might have a piece of early American silver excites me. It's the sort of thing that I'ld like to hold onto. I'm not asking for values, just want to figure out what this is. Lee IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 |
posted 06-19-2005 10:14 PM
I am very glad to hear you are excited by your buckle. I hope you will treasure it for a long time and that you will add more exciting silver to your personal collection. IP: Logged |
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Leeberko Posts: 7 |
posted 06-20-2005 07:14 AM
If only my budget were bigger. I previewed the January auctions, and got to hold and look at the early canns there. What beauties! But well outside my price range..... Lee IP: Logged |
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Scotia Posts: 125 |
posted 06-20-2005 01:58 PM
Hi there leeberko, Spoons, Tongs and other small pieces often lacked assay office marks as Silver Lyon said, but you are right in that this is not the case for all pieces, some older pieces were fully hallmarked and you are also right in that the newer the pieces are, the more likely they are to be fully hallmarked. I don't think I've seen anything post George IV lacking assay office marks and date letters. However, I definitely believe your buckle to be late 18th century English silver. [This message has been edited by Scotia (edited 06-20-2005).] IP: Logged |
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Leeberko Posts: 7 |
posted 06-21-2005 09:47 AM
Thank you for the information. Still a nice buckle, but I had been hoping that it was American. I can't afford the real thing when it is being sold as such, finding a piece - even a small one like this - in a grouping is my best hope at the moment. The search goes on! :-) Lee IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 06-25-2005 09:29 AM
Just got back from holiday and seen your wonderfull buckle picture and turned green with envy . As Silver Lyon has said the piece has an English hall mark and dates to the 1775- 1784 period - probably by style the earlier end. Maker could be Joseph Sutton, James Smith, John Stocker (all bucklemakers) Joseph Steward(No 2) or even James Stamp - I've seen several examples of this mark but cannot narrow it down. The mark is almost certainly London and not provencial What is unusual is the "twiddly bits " on the short ends. Rather unEnglish for the period My thoughts go to the possibility that it was intended for non-English sale - perhaps for Continental or American taste. Evidence from contemporary sources indicate that it was quite common to produce different styles for overseas markets. So you may well have a buckle specifically made for the American market - and the upped end at that ! If you want to sell .............
IP: Logged |
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Leeberko Posts: 7 |
posted 06-27-2005 05:49 PM
Thank you for all the information. I was hoping that it was American, in which case it would definitely NOT be for sale! I'm undecided if I would sell or not. I'll let you know if I decide to - you can have first dibs. I have no idea of the value though. Lee IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 06-27-2005 06:35 PM
Thanks Lee Have sent you an Email with some details of an American item (spoon) which might tempt you ! Clive IP: Logged |
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