SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate.

Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look.

How to Post Photos

Want to be a Moderator?
customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  British / Irish Sterling
tline3open  Georgian spoon

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Georgian spoon
tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-26-2006 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I recently bought this spoon, which I have tentatively identified as London, 1804. The seller listed the maker as James Young. Can anyone confirm my id, tell me about the maker, and say something about this style of spoon? I now have three such spoons from the late 18th to early 19th c, England and Ireland.

Thanks,
Tom

IP: Logged

Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-26-2006 06:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Assuming the mark to be I Y (which looks right) James Young of London seems a possible suspect although I have a reservation that as he was apprenticed in 1749 he would be about 70 in 1804/5. He was recorded by Heal as James Young and Son 1773 to 1790 and it is possible that he was still alive in 1804 although the business may have been run by his son(James Young the Younger!!!) by then.

It is also possible that this is one of John Yardley's marks. Yardley, the brother of William Yardley, had quite a few marks, not all registered.He seems to have been something of the black sheep of the family ! Another thought is that I do not know much about Spoon assay marks, but the lack of the bottom dimple to the stamp makes me wonder if this may be a provincial assay office - Chester, Newcastle and Exeter being the candidates - rather than London. Interesting question.

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-26-2006 08:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Clive. Yes, it is an interesting question. I wondered about the missing dimple. However, a dealer told me that an item lacking a city mark was made in London. If this information is not correct (in fact, he said "usually"), then Exeter, Chester, and Newcastle had capital "I" date marks within the appropriately shaped punch and within the date range indicated by the duty mark.

IP: Logged

Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-27-2006 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The matter of missing date letters and specific town marks (eg the leopards head for London) is complicated in the years prior to the early 19th century.

I can only speak properly for buckles (and at great length usually) but the situation in the late 18th early 19th was SHEFFIELD and BIRMINGHAM. Usually a full set of marks for virtually every thing. After their founding in 1773 they knew London was looking for any excuse to criticize their behavior and hence they were usually very good. Having said that my wife has just bought a pair of top hinged tongs by Matthew Boulton and John Fothergill which we reckon are around 1773/4 (earliest for Birmingham) and have Lion Passant, Anchor, and makers mark only.

LONDON. Buckles virtually never had a date letter or leopard head prior to 1784. Very large buckle with silver chapes have been noted with a 1787 "O" but generally the earliest regular use was from 1791/92. Leopard Head appears post 1822 in general. I have never seen a buckle pre 1800 with a Leopard head.

EXETER- much as London
OTHER ENGLISH OFFICES- not enough data.

Reason for the absence is believed to be the playful habit of makers utilizing marks from small items on bigger ones to avoid duty and weight related assay marks. Bucklemakers were generally regarded as crooks (often with good reason).

Sugar tongs follow the same pattern but I do not know enough to comment on spoons.

The non-dimpled mark does occur in London but usually only on very small assay punches.

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-27-2006 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So it seems to be down to London vs Exeter. As far as the date goes, the point is almost moot since the capital "I" for Exeter is 1805-6 (1804 for London). However, I noticed that not only does the date letter punch on my spoon look more like that of Exeter, but so does the punch for the lion passant. If you were a betting man, Clive, would agree that my spoon was probably made in Exeter?

Tom

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-27-2006 04:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Originally posted by tmockait:
quote:
So it seems to be down to London vs Exeter. As far as the date goes, the point is almost moot since the capital "I" for Exeter is 1805-6 (1804 for London). However, I noticed that not only does the date letter punch on my spoon look more like that of Exeter, but so does the punch for the lion passant. If you were a betting man, Clive, would agree that my spoon was probably made in Exeter?

If so, who would the maker have been?

Tom

IP: Logged

salmoned

Posts: 336
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 06-27-2006 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for salmoned     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Going by Jackson's (Pickford, Ed.), Exeter would appear unlikely since the duty mark is not depicted as in an oval frame for 1797 to 1816. As well, the lion and date letters are shown in rectangular frames without clipped corners. I see nothing to clearly suggest Exeter or dissuade from London. Although the sponsor mark may be clearer from other angles, designating it 'IY' isn't altogether assured either. 'IF', 'IP', 'IT' all seem to be at least as likely (is there a pip between the letters?).

[This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 06-27-2006).]

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-27-2006 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This mystery sent me off to the library to check their copy of Jackson. I found the following footnote in the London hallmark section that seems to resolve this issue:

"On some articles dating from 1784 to 1830, the shield enclosing the date letter has a rounded base, and the lion passant is sometimes found in an oval stamp."

This note explains the atypical nature of the shields on my spoon, which appears to be from London after all.

Does anyone know how common these "exceptions" to the typical shield shapes were?

Any more ideas on resolving the maker's id?

Thanks,
Tom

IP: Logged

Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 02:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are a lot of exceptions to the marks shown in Jackson et alia. Exeter had a very rectangular Lion Passant with no corners clipped (the Exeter "Letter Box" ) in the late 18th/early 19th century and an OVAL Lion passant has been seen on more than one piece. Personally I tend to feel most attributions to makers as only 99.9% certain.Even the experts sometimes get it wrong. Us lesser mortals beware. But that's the fun

IP: Logged

Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 06:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would favor maker's mark IF over IY from the photograph.

Your spoon is LONDON 1804.

The reason that the King's Head duty mark is in an oval is that this was the normal mark, as used from 1798.

On October 10th 1804 the duty on silver was increased from 1/- (one shilling) to 1/3d (one shilling and three pence) an ounce. (Ref: 44 George III 98)

In London in order to be able to determine which pieces had been taxed at the higher rate (for instance when paying BACK the tax when pieces were exported) the shape of the King's Head duty mark was changed by forming the 'blip' on the bottom of the oval.

So your spoon was assayed between 16th May and 10th October 1804 !

Hope this helps
smile

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 07:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SilverLyon,

Wow, I have never had the origin of an item narrowed down to a six-month window! Something you said piqued my curiosity as a British historian. Are you saying that the duty was collected when the piece was assayed and stamped and then repaid to the maker when it was exported?

So, does anyone have any idea about the maker IF?

Thanks,
Tom

IP: Logged

Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 07:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Second attempt...

Your spoon is LONDON 1804

The mark is that used on smaller pieces,as Clive describes.

The Oval King's Head duty mark is the one in use from 1798 and was used in 1804 from 16th May when the date letter changed from H until October 9th 1804.

From October 10th 1804 the duty payable on silver was raised from 1/- (one shilling) to 1/3d (one shilling and three pence).

To show that the greater duty had been paid, the duty mark was altered - gaining the 'blip' at the base - The was important as pieces that were exported could have the amount of duty paid reclaimed by the maker!

So your spoon was assayed between May 16th 1804 and October 9th 1804.

Hope this helps!
smile

IP: Logged

Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 09:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes.

At the provincial towns, the duty was collected and at least to start with the Duty Mark applied at the Stamp Office, not the Assay office.

This is most easily demonstrated in Exeter where it is quite easy sometimes to see that the Duty Mark was applied separately to the assay marks (lion, date letter etc.)

For convenience the task was soon assimilated into the Assay Offices, who were then give the job of collecting the tax.

There was a special procedure for reclaiming the 'drawback' of duty that had been paid.

For a short while, 1784-85, when the King's Head mark was first introduced, a special mark was used to show that the 'drawback' had been paid.

The idea was to prevent fraud, making it harder for the pieces to be illegally re-imported and the 'drawaback' being reclaimed a second (or third!) time on the same pieces.

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I purused Jackson and only found one maker whose mark was "IF": John Fountain, registered 1792 and later joined with another silversmith (before the date of my spoon). Any other ideas for the maker?

Thanks,
Tom

IP: Logged

Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is probably JOHN FISHER
who starts c.1799 (he was apprenticed in 1792).

IP: Logged

Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jackson is not comprehensive for London makers marks, the reference of choice is Grimwade, London Goldsmiths 1697 -1837. If you can borrow a copy a quick look at the main and bucklemaker sections will give you a fair choice of suspects.

IP: Logged

tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately, the library does not have Grimwade, and I know no one with a copy. I know Jackson has limitation, which is why I asked the forum. Thanks so much Clive and SilverLyon. Once again, a small investment in my hobby netted a nice spoon and some very interesting online discourse.

Regards,
Tom

IP: Logged

salmoned

Posts: 336
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for salmoned     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
John Fisher (1799) was listed as a spoon maker (or so I've been told), and appears the most likely 'IF' sponsor here, though John Fuller (1804) may also be a possibility. I also wish to acquire an inexpensive copy of Grimwade's, someday...

[This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 06-28-2006).]

IP: Logged

doc

Posts: 730
Registered: Jul 2003

iconnumber posted 06-29-2006 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Re Grimwade's, I don't know about inexpensive, but I was able to purchase a copy fairly recently, and have seen additional copies from time to time on online auction sites and through Amazon. It was a worthwhile investment, IMHO.

IP: Logged

FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 06-29-2006 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with doc; even if not cheap, Grimwade is a good investment if you handle more than one or two pieces of London silver. You get not only well researched, organized and depicted marks, but in most cases at least brief biographical information. Hours of entertaining reading! And the first time you find your maker there and read about his/her life, the sense of satisfaction alone is probably worth the expense. I'm sure there are mistakes -- no book is perfect -- but this is a good one.

IP: Logged

Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-29-2006 02:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe the currrent (third) edition is out of print. If you can get a copy in reasonable condition in England in will cost you around Ł100. The trouble is that you will find it so usefull that they soon get tatty, even before you add all your notes.If you are interested in the lives etc of the silvedsmiths always check www.oldbaileyonline.org
This has a search by name facility and often produces wonderful detail on your man/women . Usualy as tghe victim of thefrt or fraud, but sometimes on serious charges of counterfeiting marks etc.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2022 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices