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Fob watch markings

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Author	Topic: Fob watch markings
Sydney Ryder Posts: 1 Registered: May 2005	posted 01-07-2006 07:00 PM [26-0861] Hello, Would appreciate any help in identifying the markings in the follow close-up picture of a silver fob watch. Thanks for any assistance provided. -- Syd Ryder IP: Logged
salmoned Posts: 336 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 01-08-2006 06:00 PM Ostensibly, the lion passant indicates sterling silver (in England), the anchor indicates Birmingham, the small 'l' indicates 1885-6. Perhaps duty was not required for this type of object. However, the shield shape is unusual (should be octagonal for the anchor, oval for the 'l'). I'm watching for more knowledgeable comments. [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 01-08-2006).] IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 01-08-2006 06:10 PM I am also leary of the marks, which don't look quite right. That and the presence of the numbers (probably stock numbers), make me think this piece might have been mass produced silver plate with pseudo marks. Tom IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 01-09-2006 09:40 AM I too am of the opinion that the markings are suspect given the incorrect shape of the two cartouches. You might also keep in mind that a pocket watch case typically does not say much of anything about the actual watch movement. Back in the day when these were commonly used, the case and the movement were typically two separate purchases. Often a person of modest means would buy the best quality movement they could afford along with modest quality case to hold it. Later, as they became more prosperous they could buy a better quality case to hold their movement. Also, given the standardization of watch movements and case sizes, it is not uncommon to see a later or modern era marriage of a movement and a case to replace a damaged case. IP: Logged
TBC Posts: 134 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 01-09-2006 01:45 PM Hello. Can you send us another picture to give us a sense of the item? I too am puzzled. Not only is the outline apparantly wrong, so too is the duty mark missing for 1885. This said, I am very loath to deem these marks spurious or pseudo for a number of reasons: they are too close to genuine marks for comfort and would have rendered the vendor liable to be prosecuted in circumstances where there was little enough gain; the item is too small to bother faking; if not silver (and I think it is) the item can only be sheffield plate i.e. it is unlikely to be electro plated (ep) due to depth of inscribed numbers and the fact electro plating was only discovered (I think) post 1860). I must confess to being puzzled. I would, however, add that the marks in Jackson's and other reference books are intended as a guide only - that are not sacrosanct (indeed, there is a significant difference in Jackson's between the outline of Irish marks in mid to late 1800s where the main book shows particular outlines or cartouches of the marks and later in "Appendix 1 - Dublin Marks" of actual photographs, the outline or cartouche is very different. In my, albeit limited, experience, this is not an exact science... Best wishes to all, Tom IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 01-09-2006 06:30 PM Tom, You are right about the date of electroplating (I think it was discovered in the 1850s), but I doubt this piece was made before mid century anyway. Don't the numbers suggest mass production with stock or order numbers? Wouldn't they date it as much later? Tom [This message has been edited by tmockait (edited 01-09-2006).] IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 01-09-2006 11:25 PM I can add nothing that will identify these marks except to say that they cannot be on Sheffield silver, as such marking would have been strictly illegal. Electroplating has been done since the 1840's, at least in England, but I suspect this piece is solid silver and perhaps as late as Twentieth Century from the numerical codes, and the lack of the sovereign's head duty mark which would have been required in Birmingham in 1885 (unless exempt for some reason). These may be pseudohallmarks, for all I know, or they could be forgeries, "colonial" marks, or even genuine variants of the Birmingham marks for 1885. What marks are on the movement of the watch - the maker's name could provide a valuable clue? IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 01-10-2006 03:05 PM Electroplating was "discovered" in 1805, but it did not get going in a large scale way until the 1840s. There are claims, though, that it was first discovered as far back as about 250 BC. Clay jars with copper cylinders, iron rods, bitumen and traces of acid inside were discovered in Iraq that date back to that time. Copper vases with what appear to be silver plating from around that era have also been found in that area. The most common interpretation of these finds is they had discovered batteries and electroplating. These were some of the artifacts stolen from the Baghdad Museum during the recent war. IP: Logged
Waylander Posts: 131 Registered: Sep 2004	posted 01-12-2006 02:56 AM In this earlier thread Watch Cases, Silver Lyon notes that watch cases after 1797 were exempt from duty - hence no duty mark, notwithstanding the date. Waylander IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 01-12-2006 02:24 PM Waylander is of course correct -- I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder. IP: Logged
zaganos Posts: 18 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 01-12-2006 05:56 PM Hello Sydney Ryder, Your pocket watch case has been hallmarked Birmingham 1885 and I think there is no doubt it is 0,925 silver but not plated. There is a monogram W.E is obviously belongs to famous watch and watch case maker William Ehrhardt from 1855 to 1920s, sure his son with the same name continued his father's job. The style of the monogram definitely confirms that this case made by W. Ehrhardt. Also Birmingham hallmark is another indication because William Ehrhardt opened a workshop at 30 Paradise Street, Birmingham in 1855 and in 1862 opened a second manufacturing premise at 26 Augusta Street. From this second address he exhibited watches and instruments at the 1862 International Exhibition in London. The firm moved to larger premises at 72 Great Hampton Street in 1863, and later to Time Works, Barr Street. By 1880 the firm was manufacturing 500 watches a week, some by hand and some by machine because William was fair minded and appreciated that some of his older staff preferred to work with the old methods. By 1898, a shop has been opened in London at which time they advertised that they made 500 patterns in gold and silver. Hope it helps, Happy new year to all IP: Logged

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