Punch urn? - SMP Silver Salon Forums

SM Publications

Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.

SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate.

Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look.

How to Post Photos

Want to be a Moderator?

SMP Silver Salon Forums
tline

British / Irish Sterling
tline3

Punch urn?

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone!

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Author	Topic: Punch urn?
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 Registered: May 99	posted 07-24-2007 11:29 AM [08-0526] I am trying to research a reference in an 18th-century inventory to a solid silver "punch urn." I assume this means a footed punchbowl, but I would love to get a reference (or even a picture) of an English example of the 1785-1795 period. IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 Registered: Apr 93	posted 07-24-2007 04:14 PM Google returns: quote: JSTOR: After the Cloth Was Removed At least one silver monteith was owned in that city; and a silver punch urn or cup, with the strainer, was mentioned in the will of George Roupell's ... I don't have access to JSTOR but may be you do? A US example at the MFA, Boston quote: Punch urn about 1796 Paul Revere, Jr., American, 1734-1818 Boston, Massachusetts, United States Silver Classification: Silver hollowware Catalogue: Buhler, 1972, No. 406 Museum of Fine Arts, Boston Gift of Henry Davis Sleeper in memory of his mother, Maria Westcote Sleeper, 1925 Accession number: 25.597 Provenance/Ownership History: General Henry Jackson; Hepzibah Clark Swan (1757-1826); her daughter Christiana Keadie Sargent; her son Henry Jackson Sargent, 1833; descended to Henry Sargent Appleton, the seller. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-24-2007 07:30 PM These must not be common, as they are not listed in the silver dictionaries. An urn is defined as a vessel that dispenses fluid through a spigot, so the above example would seem to be representative of the type, rather than a footed punch bowl, which would not have a spigot. I wonder how many of these are passed off as coffee urns? We learn something new every day! IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 07-25-2007 09:51 AM The JSTOR article citation is Winterthur Portfolio 4 (1968), pp.47-62. As copyrighted material we can't post the whole article here, but that should help people find it if they're interested. Unfortunately it doesn't offer any more detail - the following extract should be both legal and sufficient: quote: {The will} of "Miss Polly {Roupell}," proved in January, 1845, left to a family friend and legal adviser, Henry Alexander DeSaussure, "the Silver Punch cup or urn that was my Fathers, with the Strainer and also my two Silver bread or cake baskets." This was from a Charleston, SC, will. IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 07-25-2007 10:38 AM Checking for published English examples, I found no punch urns. But tea or hot water urns of the approximate period can be seen in several places: Christie's Pictorial History of English and American Silver, pp.209, 211; The National Trust Book of English Domestic Silver 1500-1900, pp.228-9 (showing two by Henry Chawner, one much larger than the other - perhaps one was intended for punch?); and English, Irish and Scottish Silver at the Sterling and Francine Clark Art Institute, pp.364-65. Apparently the great innovation with this form was an iron insert that could be separately heated to keep the contents warm without needing a spirit burner. I would then presume that a punch urn would be used for a hot punch, rather than a cold one that perhaps continued to be served from a bowl. These sources also suggest an explanation for the phrase above, "punch cup or urn": these urns have a form like the covered footed cups of the period, but with the addition of the spigot. [This message has been edited by FWG (edited 07-25-2007).] IP: Logged
DB Posts: 252 Registered: May 2006	posted 07-25-2007 04:55 PM In English silver the punch urn might be called wine fountain - usually in combination with a wine cistern. The same form exists also in German silver - for an illustration of an example by Pierre Harache see M. Clayton: The Collector's Dictionary..... page 337, No.712 If the shown American "punch urn" were English, this would be seen as conversion from a (racing) cup and cover, a proper tea-urn has a small fitted lid on top of the container and not a wide lid sitting on the shoulders of the vessel. The shown punch urn might as well have been a tea or hot-water urn, as the later examples (from 1770 on) nearly never had an inside heating rod or were fitted with an inside cylinder for hot coals. IP: Logged
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 Registered: May 99	posted 08-12-2007 06:19 PM Thanks, gang. So now I'm thinking like a coffee or tea urn...and certainly something NOT made in the US (that Revere example requires more study...) IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 Registered: Apr 93	posted 04-13-2017 12:03 PM close up of urn IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 Registered: Apr 93	posted 04-13-2017 01:03 PM Henry Jackson Sargent House Gloucester Mass. IP: Logged

All times are ET	next newest topic \| next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Close Topic \| Archive/Move \| Delete Topic
	Hop to:

Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a

^1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

^2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

^3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.

| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver