Unidentified Scottish(?) Mark c 1795 Perth (?) RD

SM Publications

Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.

SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate.

Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look.

How to Post Photos

Want to be a Moderator?

SMP Silver Salon Forums
tline

British / Irish Sterling
tline3

Unidentified Scottish(?) Mark c 1795 Perth (?) RD

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone!

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Author	Topic: Unidentified Scottish(?) Mark c 1795 Perth (?) RD
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-11-2007 03:50 PM My wife recently bought a nice pair of bright cut sugar tongs which have only the makers mark RD and what seems to me to be a Perth mark. Although well made they do seem slightly cruder cut than London made tongs. The RD could be perhaps Robert Dickson, although the only reference I have (Jackson) shows the mark as different. This RD appears to be slightly decollated on the edges of the D at least. I cannot get a decent photo or smoke, so have given a very awful drawing of the mark. There is another, identical RD mark (without the rectangular mark) on the other arm of the tongs. Has anyone any ideas, or seen an attributed mark like this? Clive IP: Logged
DB Posts: 252 Registered: May 2006	posted 10-11-2007 05:25 PM In my experience the stamping of the master mark on both arms of a pair of sugartongs points to a North-American origin. The following does not help right now but is maybe good to know. Have just looked through the Woolley & Wallis catalogue of the How sale and on the last page they have an announcement that "Scottish silver marks" by Mrs. G. E. P. How with Henry Fothringham will be available in September 2008. There is a reduced price for reserved copies - more info from Pallas Athene Publishers - email info@pallasathene.co.uk. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-11-2007 05:56 PM Thanks for the comment. The information on the forthcoming book on Scottish silver marks is very useful, the publishers list it on Pallasathene as forthcoming at £79.99 or £69.99 (presumably if pre ordered) which is about USD 160 or 120. quote: SCOTTISH SILVER MARKS Jane Penrice How 0 952996 3 7 A comprehensive catalgoue of marks on Scottish silver, by the acknowledged world expert, illustrated with photographs taken over half a century of collecting. From the style of the bright cutting these tongs are not American IMHO but I have been known to be wrong. Quite often! IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-11-2007 09:37 PM Any chance you could post a photo of the tongs with the decoration, if not of the mark, Clive? IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-12-2007 04:03 AM Very poor scan but it's the best I can do ! Style is very English, but the quality less than London ! IP: Logged
DB Posts: 252 Registered: May 2006	posted 10-12-2007 08:21 AM Now, does this pair of sugartongs look English? - yes... but it is American, made by Anthony Simmons, Philadelphia ca. 1797 and stamped on both arms with A.Simmons in rectangular surround. If the photo uploads I have made my point. IP: Logged
DB Posts: 252 Registered: May 2006	posted 10-12-2007 08:29 AM And staying with sugartongs - I do not know if this posting is against the rules - if yes, please zapp it Scott - on the big auction site a Kentucky sugartongs stamped J.Stephens-Paris went for the incredible sum of US$ 6482.00 - remember there are always two bidders (!!!!) to reach such a price. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-12-2007 09:06 AM Thanks DB .Point taken - American very similar to England Scotland and Irish - indeed your photo has a slightly Irish twinge to it. Which begs another question - was it made in America - or bought in , unmarked, from England. Certainly happened with Channel Island silver made in Birmingham but marked for CI silversmiths, and much Exeter marked silver came from London or Birmingham sources. IP: Logged
DB Posts: 252 Registered: May 2006	posted 10-12-2007 10:28 AM Who is to know really? In Martha Gandy Fales: Joseph Richardson and Family, Philadelphia Silversmiths, one reads that Richardson imported silver from England but most goods he retailed were made in his workshop. A case of ordering sample pieces. Another example is "The Diary of William Faris, The Daily Life of an Annapolis Silversmith" - lots of silver made in the English - then prevailing and preferred - fashion. I guess items marked have to be listed as this silversmith's work. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-12-2007 11:25 AM Thanks for posting the photo, Clive. While there are American variations from the established English patterns, a great many, if not most, follow the English/Irish models, either as copies, or as in the examples DB has cited, direct imports. The same can be said for this style (shape) of tongs, which varied little in the period immediately following the change from cast arms to one-piece spring tongs. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-12-2007 12:03 PM Yes , it could well be an American mark, but my guess is still for Perth. Let's hope someone has seen this makers mark with a unequivocal Scots or a known American silversmiths mark ! IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-13-2007 07:44 AM The Publisher of the Scottish Marks books advises - quote: Scottish Silver Marks is due next September. Copies reserved now will be invoiced out in August at £74, a discount of £20, and dispatched on receipt of payment by cheque or credit card. Many thanks. Alexander Fyjis-Walker This I think includes UK postage. IP: Logged
DB Posts: 252 Registered: May 2006	posted 10-13-2007 09:33 AM Rummaged around in my sugartongs collection and found a Perth example, made by Robert KeayII - as you can see the tongs are stamped (like most/all of the Scottish examples I have seen) in the inside of the bow, and the double and triple marks are grouped together - not stamped on either arm like American or Canadian ones. By the way I got the same email from Pallasathene - now we only need the book. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-13-2007 09:51 AM Interesting pair- and very typical of the slightly later, "good weight for your money" Scots tongs. Still amazing to me that these tongs, made I imagine in early Victorian times, were marked and sold quite blatantly without the duty mark. Unless there is an assay and Duty mark elsewhere ! IP: Logged
DB Posts: 252 Registered: May 2006	posted 10-13-2007 01:06 PM To answer your question, date of the tongs around 1840,except for the ones shown no other marks on this piece. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-13-2007 04:41 PM So as late as 1840'ish Scots provincial silver was being sold in total defiance of the law without duty being paid. Clearly marked so the offenders obviusly had no fear of being caught. IP: Logged
DB Posts: 252 Registered: May 2006	posted 10-13-2007 04:59 PM Let's take it easy, this "crime" happened 160 years ago. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 10-13-2007 10:14 PM In order to be assayed, silver would have to have been sent to either Edinburgh or Glasgow, where the assay offices were located. This was not always practical for the provincial makers who probably would not have put their marks on the silver they did not send for assay if they feared prosecution. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 10-14-2007 02:43 AM As a historian I am always interested in the implications of anything which sheds light on a period. As Swarter states, the provencial silversmith had obviously no fear of the draconian measures available to the authorities for non-payment of duty. We can tell something of the prevailing Scots culture from this - far beyond that available in official documents. The morality of non-payment does not concern me, but the obvious practical lack of central control from Britain beyond the main Scots centres does interest me. Amazing how this discussion has wandered ! IP: Logged

All times are ET	next newest topic \| next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Close Topic \| Archive/Move \| Delete Topic
	Hop to:

Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a

^1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

^2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

^3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.

| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver