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tline3open  Unknown Mark - RS - Presumed London around 1730

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Author Topic:   Unknown Mark - RS - Presumed London around 1730
Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 08-09-2008 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can anybody shed any light on this mark please?

It's on what I think is an English neck stock or cravat buckle of around 1730.

Usually stock buckles were post 1740 and attached at the back of the neck to secure the cravat or stock. They were one piece and comprised a frame and a studded multi pronged chape. Some early ones however were two part clasps like this and I believe were secured at the front and were often military, or derived from the military.

This pair I think may be have started out as two separate clasps, and the pair got mixed up - as the decoration is slightly different on each.

I have pairs of socks that have done the same.

Same maker, same pattern and marks however.

The Lion Passant Guardant appears to be that of London 1720 -1740 and the decoration supports that dating.

However I can find no silversmith, either London or provincial whose mark seems to fit.

Could it be a colonial psuedo mark?

Any suggestions?

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jersey

Posts: 1203
Registered: Feb 2005

iconnumber posted 08-09-2008 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Clive!
A question please, are those the only 2 marks?

Thank you.

Jersey

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 08-10-2008 04:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, there only is a makers mark and a Lion Passant on each of the two halves of the clasp.Total thus of two makers and two Lions Passant. Entirely normal for buckles which very rarely, if ever, had date letters until late in the 18th century and did not get town marks (except for Birmingham and Sheffield ) until even later. Tongs and nips followed the same pattern. Believed to be to avoid transposing of marks from cheap objects to larger ones by silversmiths. Result is that most early buckles, nips and tongs can only be dated by positive identification of maker or the form of the assay Lion Passant. For that reason I usually group buckles by the periods 1720 -1740, 1740 -1756, 1756 - 1783, 1783 - 1790. After 1790 most shoe buckles have dateletters , closely followed by the smaller buckles.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 08-10-2008 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some further information on this clasp buckle.

Originally when I bid for this item on *Bay I thought it would be a 1770-1780 piece of somewhat archaic form, of very thin metal and brightcut. Most surving clasps come from the 1790's. The photo provided by the vendor showed it closed and hence the middle edge of the bottom half was not visible.

When I received it , I found it to be of thick silver, probably had raised rather than made of pre rolled silver and either cast and chased, or chaste extremely well. Decoration was slightly asymmetric and the previously concealed edge proved have the typical diamond lozenge with dots often found in the 1730's. The stippling of the background is also a feature of the buckles of this period

Hence my acceptance of the Lion Passant as probably the London 1720 -1740 punch.

Any buckle of this era is extremely rare and naturally I was delighted - but exceeding frustrated for not to be able to tie the maker down.

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Polly

Posts: 1971
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 08-10-2008 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can you explain how it was used? I'm having trouble imagining it. Did the cloth go through the slits somehow?

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 08-10-2008 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

The stock is a long piece of cloth with three button holes at each end. Each of the two halves of the clasp has it's three studs inserted into these holes - one each end of the stock . Stock then placed around neck and the two half clasps joined together.

One half (the top one in the photo) has a hook at the bottom edge which engages one of the three slots in the other - which allows a certain amount of adjustment - like a bra strap has one hook but three eyes. Or so I seem to recall !

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jersey

Posts: 1203
Registered: Feb 2005

iconnumber posted 08-10-2008 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Clive!

Am looking for my other marks book.

In the meantime, is not that lion called a lion passant guardant?

Jersey

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Polly

Posts: 1971
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 08-10-2008 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Illuminating explanation--thank you.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 08-11-2008 02:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Jersey, thanks for looking.

Yes, all the Lions Passant prior to 1822 were Lions Passant Guardant, that is they all had their faces turn looking towards you. London moved to the lion looking ahead in 1821/1822 and most of the provincial offices eventually followed suit, some as late as the twentieth century - and Chester and York never did.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-09-2008 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A bit of further information

Pre 1740 buckles are so scarce that I was really out of my depth on this speciment, and although fairly confident that I had attributed it to date , I sought the advice of one of the very few people I regard as real silver experts on Georgian British Isles silver.

He confirmed in his opinion 1730 -1740, London and not psuedo marks. And wanted to buy it ! I will not embarress by giving his name as he is very politically correct in these matters.

Sometimes one cannot believe your own judgement when something as rare as this comes into your custody .

But, come on folks, who is the maker!

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 09-11-2008 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just to show willing I skimmed Heal's London Goldsmiths but didn't spot anybody with the right initials for the dates you suggest, and of course simply finding a name wouldn't prove anything. I imagine Richard Severn, jeweller and toyman, c.1760, would be in the right branch of the trade, as a retailer at least, if he had an unrecorded working history stretching back 20 years or so from the date given by Heal but it would require some massive assumptions to turn this into even a tentative attribution! So, no help from me I fear.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-12-2008 03:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks

It's a lead any-how. A "Toyman" certainly retailed or made buckles, so a Jeweler and Toyman undoubtedly was in the trade.

In the wonderfully haphazard world of the 1730's regulation was a desirable, but not necessarily consistent feature. From the number of unknown marks in the last half of the eighteenth century we all mutter " lost register" but there are many makers marks seen on pieces undoubtedly from before 1740 which are not recorded.

Anyone forgetting the human tendency to break the rules by neglect, ignorance, criminal intent or parsimony misses the point. Many modern civil servants have the same blindness !

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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 09-13-2008 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's the names of some early bucklemakers for your notes if they might be of use; sorry nothing with the initials RS:

Marriages 1700
Wolverhampton
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
30 Oct 1700 Robert Hum, bucklemaker & Mary Tymmins both this towne.

Staffordshire: West Bromwich - Parish Registers, 1608-1658
1653. Baptisms. Vol. 2.

Staffordshire: Bilston - Parish Registers, 1684-1746
Baptism
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
21 Nov 1724/5 Robert, s. of Edwd. Baggley, jun., Bucklemaker

1653. Baptisms. Vol. 2.
Anno Domini, 1651.
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
14 Dec 1656 Anne, d. of Robert & Anne Marsh, Bucklemaker.

Staffordshire: Bilston - Parish Registers, 1684-1746
Baptisms.
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
25 Sep 1723 Robert, s. of Robt. Foxall, Bucklemaker. private Baptm.

Staffordshire: Bilston - Parish Registers, 1684-1746
Baptisms.
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
29 Oct 1724 Robert, s. of Robt. Mosse, Bucklemaker.

Baptisms and Marriages at St. George's Chapel, Mayfair
Thomas Simes of St James Clerkenwell, bucklemaker 28 Sep 1729


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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-13-2008 04:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Many thanks Bascall.

Nearly all of these are from the "Black Country", the area around Birmingham which was the centre of the non-silver bucklemaking trade in the late 17th and 18th centuries.

Thomas Simes is a name unknown to me, and from the address of the marriage he was a man of substance. Clerkenwell is traditional City but St Georges, Mayfair is upmarket. Could well be a journeyman silver bucklemaker and although no recorded mark he could have a mark in the lost 1740 -56 Register.

Perhaps even the maker of the buckle shown below. Unrecorded maker TS, date of assay 1740 -1756. Probable date c 1740 -1750

Not unlikely .

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jersey

Posts: 1203
Registered: Feb 2005

iconnumber posted 09-13-2008 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Clive!

I am still looking for my book. As it turns out it is Jacksons, & you have gotten responses from members who have checked that source out.

Just a question I have. Forgive me, & given the fact that I have little to no knowledge of silver marks outside of the USA, but I am learning though, thanks to the Forum.

I had a crazy thought. I know you said you had gotten advice from someone saying it was London etc, but is it possible the maker could be from Ireland or Scotland?

Maybe our member agphile can help. He is from your area.

Let us know when you have the answer........it's making me nuts, (more than usual)!

Have a great day.

Jersey

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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 09-13-2008 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're welcome Clive. Has it been suggested yet that you should do a slide show of your buckle collection? If not it would be great!

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 09-13-2008).]

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11573
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 09-13-2008 06:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I second that suggestion.
smile

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 09-13-2008 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jersey

Thanks for the kind suggestion that I might help but I fear that Clive has a better grasp of marks than I do - and probably a better reference library as I don't have much on Irish, Scottish or provincial makers (apart from Chester and the West Country). As reported earlier, I have failed to come up with anybody having the right initials and known to have been working at the right date. Sorry to prove something of a broken reed!

David

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jersey

Posts: 1203
Registered: Feb 2005

iconnumber posted 09-13-2008 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well agphile, it was worth a shot! BTW I hadn't realized you had responded to the post......that's my dyslectic brain. But if you couldn't help you never know, you might know of someone that could, and being that you are from England, you would be in a better position than I.

BTW My good friends have now forever crossed the pond to Cambridge. I miss them already. I have asked them to look for "stuff" for me, specifically Chawner/Adams pattern Canova.

Jersey

[This message has been edited by jersey (edited 09-13-2008).]

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jersey

Posts: 1203
Registered: Feb 2005

iconnumber posted 09-13-2008 10:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Clive, Sorry to be such a nudge, but is it possible from what I have read re marks of the period, it states that in the Britannia period from 1695 to 1720 marks were the first two letters of his/her name, not their initials. I obviously have no clue whether this applies here or not.
I'll go now, thanks for putting up with me.

Jersey

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-14-2008 05:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jersey - thanks your input.

This is for you!

The stock clasp marked RS has a Lion Passant Guardant on it - in the squat rectangular London form used in between 1720 and 174O. There was another similar form one also used by London 1681 - 1697 and the provincial offices also had outbreaks of this type , usually slightly broader, throughout the 18th century. It was also a good standby for contemporary fakers and unscrupulous 19th century German makers ! Coupled with wear , this area tends to be a minefield for the unwary. Certainly the piece is English, not Scots or Irish, or proports to be so. Which was why, given it's rarity ,I needed another, more expert opinion.

During the Britannia period 1697 -1720 the first two letters of the family name were officially to be used. But as usual not every one obeyed the rules ! And the Lion Passant was, in theory not used. Incidentally a more correct name should be "The Britannia ONLY period" - you can still use the Britannia standard even now as an option -although very few people do.

The TS buckle has London Lion Passant (all these Lions were Guardant of course) of the 1740 -1756 form. This, other than style is the only easy method of dating small waree without date letters.

With your Jacksons -check out the punch forms for London in between 1720 and 1822.
You will soon learn how to date to four distinct periods 1720-1740 (squat rectangle - often called the "skinny lion " ), 1740 -1756 (a side indented and bottom cusped mark usually called "cottage loaf", 1756 - 1822 (the one with a nipple on the bottom-usually called "pointed bottom" . The latter comes with or without a duty mark of a George Head - those with a George Head being post 1785.

Lecture over !

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 09-14-2008 07:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Clive, thank you for your post. I wish more American silver dealers would read the English posts. How many times have I looked at an item with two marks and the seller would reply, it cannot be English as it only have two marks. At this point I have to go to the dentish as I have broken a few teeth by gritting them soo tightly. When I suggest a possible non-American source I sometimes hear this response, "No, it would have to have at least five marks to be English.". Well, here I go back to the dentist again.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-14-2008 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your dealers are right.

All English silver has 5 marks.

Except when they have 4.
Or 3
Or 2
Or 1
Or None.

Otherwise dentists would go out of business

One year they could have 6!

Guess which year?

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argentum1

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Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 09-14-2008 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have found but one ABSOLUTE in my 68 years and that is 'there are absolutely no absolutes'.

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jersey

Posts: 1203
Registered: Feb 2005

iconnumber posted 09-14-2008 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear Clive!

I did not consider your response as a "lecture", that to me means I have been bad & in need of a talking to! I welcome your response a a new & valuable learning lesson, from a knowledgeable teacher. I Thank you kind sir!

My Jackson book alas is still missing, perhaps hiding in the dark caverns of my many bookcases, (I hope). Or it has been lent out to someone I can't recall.

Maybe I can invoke the help one of my favorite saints to aid in your search for a maker since I'm not doing well on my own...........(Kidding).

Do the names of Robert Swanson or Robert Sallam ring any bells?

Any chance of contacting a Museum or your Roadshow people in England?

Jersey

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-14-2008 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Jersey - I wasn't sure if I had rabbited on too much - as is my habit - so I try to lighten matters.

I once had a guest on our narrow boat who I proceeded to instruct at great lengths on the basic points of seamanship in a tideway.

Only to find out later he was a retired supertanker master and had more sea days than I had hours !

There are no recorded marks in Grimwade for Robert Swanson which match. He may have an unrecorded one - or Grimwade may have missed one - and certainly as smallworker in the 1730's and 1740's his dates fit. I'll check with Goldsmiths Hall along with another suspect I've found. (You may note I take it all very personally - I regard all unidentified marks as an affront!)

Robert Sallam is probably out of the time frame - he was apprenticed in 1736 and was unlikely to have even an unregistered mark by 1741 which is latest date this buckle , in theory could be assay marked.

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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 09-15-2008 09:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And your year question? 1797...

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-16-2008 02:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was not actually thinking of 1797. But you are right - yes, you could find 6 marks on provincial silver:
    Makers mark
    Lion Passant
    Town Mark
    Date letter
    and the Duty mark struck twice.
But I think that's slightly cheating!

Like the junior school examination where the question "Name 6 things that have Milk in them " was answered by " Cheese , Butter, Yoghurt and....er ... 3 cows" !

There's one year (or period of less than 12 months) when there could be, legally and necessarily, 6 entirely different marks on a piece of silver.

Clue - the sixth mark is exceedingly rare. I only have one example ! And that is on a buckle by Hester Bateman.

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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 09-16-2008 04:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In that case, 1/Dec/1784 to July 1785 - the duty drawback...

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 09-16-2008 07:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
YES !!!!!!!

It's a rare one, especially as by definition the articles bearing it were exported from England.

There must be many in the USA - mine I think came from Jersey. Much sort after by English collectors - I've seem an otherwise very boring teaspoon, again by Hester Bateman , fetch over �400 (cUSD 750), just by it's presence. Like the Britannia mark often mistaken for Irish.

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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 12-12-2008 03:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Clive, here's another buckle maker that you may have record of who is from the same source as Simes: William Hays of Walsall Co, Staff., wed Alice Tuder of Spring Garden, St James Mar 30, 1730.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 12-12-2008 06:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Many thanks bascall. I take a note of these just in case they were early silver bucklemakers - but their names are legion !

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