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Unknown Mark MB - but with a twist

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Author	Topic: Unknown Mark MB - but with a twist
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 09-11-2008 09:03 AM I recently bought a pair of shoe buckles with only a makers mark "MB" stamped in two places on each. No other marks at all other than the initials of the presumed owner, SMM . Buckles are almost certainly English, from around 1775 -1784. Normally one would expect to see a Lion Passant Guardant in the place of one of these marks. Mark, as you can see, is more typical of the first half of the eighteenth century. Buckle should actually be seen as a rectangle - the inward tilt is the result of alteration, perhaps to fit a different style of shoe - or damage. I've checked Grimwade, Jackson, Gill and Ridgway & Priestly and I do not think the mark is recorded there. Neither can I find any suspects in the Channel Islands. I would appreciate comment from anyone who has seen any other examples or knows the originator. I have however a theory - which will be revealed later - but would appreciate your comments before I make a complete fool of myself. As often happens! IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 09-11-2008 04:04 PM Can't help with the mark - I only have the same ref books as you (or probably actually just some of them). If wild guesses are in order, it did strike me that Benjamin Mountigue seems to have had a considerable range of marks. Could this be yet another, unrecorded? However, I would guess this style of mark at this date is more likely to belong to a provincial maker, perhaps somebody using an inherited family punch. I was struck by the three inscribed initials which resemble what would be marriage initials on a spoon, when I woould have expected just two initials for a male owner - or is a triangle of initials as common on buckles as it is on flatware? IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 09-11-2008 04:29 PM I had the same thought about the initials. You would expect to see them as , say Michael & Mary Singer on an item like a pair of tongs - but on a pair of shoe buckles ? The only ones you sometimes find like that are Channel Island names - which are by , as I understand by syllable. So SMM can be Simmond May. But those are usually in one straight line separated by what normally looks like stylised clumps of grass ! [This message has been edited by Clive E Taylor (edited 10-06-2008).] IP: Logged
salmoned Posts: 336 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 09-11-2008 04:36 PM It looks like the mark is an overstrike, could it be MP with traces from the other mark? Oops, I suppose not as you mention multiple marks. [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 09-11-2008).] IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4132 Registered: Apr 99	posted 09-11-2008 05:47 PM At a glance, I suspect that the S is a later addition, the original initials being MM (or vice-versa). The structure and stroke of the letters say two different hands at work to me. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 09-11-2008).] IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 09-11-2008 06:13 PM WEV, I think you coulld be right about the S being later. It does look cruder, and deeper incisted - or perhaps has less wear. Salmoned, I am almost certain the MB mark is not an overstrike. I have four to examine and although two show a little punch judder, one is absolutely clean. If they are overstruck it has been done with precision to within a micron ! But I will examine Grimwade to see if the top sunray/ crown could belong to anyone else. Knowing my luck it will be Zilbert Xavier ! [This message has been edited by Clive E Taylor (edited 09-11-2008).] IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 09-11-2008 10:34 PM quote: Originally posted by wev: At a glance, I suspect that the S is a later addition, the original initials being MM (or vice-versa). The structure and stroke of the letters say two different hands at work to me. That was my thought, too, before I was called away from the computer earlier, IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 09-12-2008 05:18 AM Reverting to your point about Channel Island use of three initials, I thought this generally related to two-part surnames of French origin: e.g. Henri Dubois (du Bois)becomes HDB and Henri Legrand (le Grand) HLG. This was because so many names started with Le, La, Du or De la that just using L or D as the initial gave insufficient identification. However, I haven't seen enough examples to know whether the practice spread to other types of name. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 09-12-2008 09:40 AM The whole matter of Channel Island owners initials is fraught. Certainly I do not understand the usages, especially as even the experts cannot follow some ! I have a pair of buckles with I..DRS which no one is prepared to guess at ! Yes, French two part surnames used two characters for the family name ,plus one for the forename. But English names also used the syllabic form for the two word names, so what would end up as two letter in England ended up as three on Jersey. A futher complication is that the officers of the English garrison used a modified, but identifiable form. Of which I cannot remember the details ! Anyone properly understanding the system would benefit all of us by starting a thread on the subject - I'm sure everyone would greatly appreciate it. [This message has been edited by Clive E Taylor (edited 09-13-2008).] IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 09-14-2008 05:30 AM I stated that I had a theory – and gave a clue in the phrase “with a twist". I think that this mark may be that of Benjamin Mountigues (thanks Agphile!) as I have in fact a another slightly larger but otherwise virtual identical buckle marked BM and he is known to have used MB. "A unique example of reversed initials in a mark" as Grimwade says of his June 1772 mark (No 1999). I had always considered this to be an error by the punch engraver, which due to oversight or thrift got registered, but who knows? This pair being to the same pattern as a known Mountigue design may be coincidence perhaps (although the shape is not common with this decoration) but the coincidence of Benjamin being known to have the only reversed initials mark gives too (pun) many coincidences to be totally discounted. Is it possible that this MB was a punch used by Benjamin, on items he did not want assayed as either they were for special commission (not "exposed for sale" ) or substandard or even for export. Actually it was illegal to export silver without assay marks, but this did not deter some silversmiths from trying to save assay etc fees. And the bucklemakers were a particularly unruly lot in general! The another explanation is that this is a totally unrecorded mark of Matthew Bolton, who was the son of a bucklemaker, and who was very involved in the buckle trade. But that is pure speculation. All comments very welcome. IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 798 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 09-14-2008 05:00 PM When I mentioned Mountigue I thought he was at best an outside possibility but I agree that your having the same pattern with a BM mark makes the attribution more credible and perhaps the most likely given the lack of evidence for any other owner of the "crowned" MB mark. Neat thinking! IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 04-19-2010 12:36 PM My wife may have resolved the mystery! She noticed that Grimeade mark 3489, which he dates to around 1770 has a shamrock shaped crest. Examining my four examples of the MB mark it is possible to see that the horizontal area below "the crown" is not consistent on all, but differs. It now appears that the original mark may well that of Benjamin Gigac , very carefully overstamped with MB which is probably Grimwades 1999, Benjamin Mountigue. Or Mountigue acquired the old punch and decided to use it in conjunction with his wrongly made punch. IP: Logged

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