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tline3open  Souviner Spoon

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Author Topic:   Souviner Spoon
venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1083]

Here are pictures of a lovely spoon that came in a ziplock with several other silver items. I think it comes from England and is really lovely and in wonderful condition. However knowing the maker and any history would be nice.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 12:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I cannot read the dates on the spoon or make out the hallmarks from the blurred photo. Can you post clearer pictures?

The ship appears to be HMS Pelican an 18-gun Brig (type of ship) from the War of 1812 and Napoleonic Wars.

Tom

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1800
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It appears to be the London "h" date mark for 1903.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 02:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Close-ups of the back of the bowl and the top front of the handle would also help as they seem to have figures and crests on them.

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Was in the process of relating what the marks said, when my pc crashed. So here I go again.

Makers Mark PK&P in a shield.
DRAKE writen under the head


the other marks are h
leopard head uncrowned
lion passant

The bowl of the spoon is marked:

PLYMOUTH
PELICAN
1577-1580

On the back top is a shell then crossed spades under an anchor. On the bowl is a crest of sorts with and X. In each "arm" of the X lies a single tower. Making single 4 towers in all.

I will try redoing the pictures, but this has not been a good day and I may not get to them.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Venus,

Ok, same name, different ship. This "Pelican" was the orignal name of Franics Drake's Ship, renamed the Golden Hinde, in service 1577-80. The ship's home port was Plymouth.

Tom

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outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know about the silver spoon, but it is a particularly nice one!

Here is info about the Plymouth Pelican (aka Golden Hind)and the circumnavigation of the globe:


In 1577 Francis Drake left England leading a fleet of five ships on their way to the mouth of the Nile. The true purpose of the voyage was announced after reaching Africa: Drake wanted to sail across the Pacific Ocean and Magellan Straits to circumnavigate the world. Lord Hutton sponsored the trip, however Queen Elisabeth also gave 1000 crones for it. On the 15th November, 5 ships left Plymouth: PELICAN, ELIZABETH, MARIGOLD, SWAN and CHRISTOPHER. The ships made their way along the Spanish coast, and laded in Africa to renew the provisions of food and water. On their way to the Capo Verde they took over a Portuguese ship commanded by an experienced Navigator Nuno da Silva. Not only did Drake confiscate all his detailed maps, but also forced to lead the ships through treacherous waters.

On 5th April 1578 after 54 days of sailing, the coast of Brasilia loomed in front of them. Along its coast, another Portuguese ship, carrying wine, linen and silk, fell into Drake's hands. The trip along the South America's coast was full of storms and skirmishes with the natives. Not having enough crew to sail all the ships, Drake was forced to leave two of them. At the same time, he renamed his flagship PELICAN to GOLDEN HINDE. Hinde is an old English world for the female deer. This animal was on Lord Hutton's crest.

In September of 1578 a fleet of three ships managed to cross the treacherous waters of Magellan Straits in 14 days, just to get caught in a storm on the Pacific. They fought against terrible weather for two months unable to get away. The smallest of the ships, MARIGOLD, went down with all hands. The fleet was dispersed. ELIZABETH found herself back in the Straits, and made her way back to England. GOLDEN HIND was pushed far away to the South. When the storms ended, Drake decided to sail along the Pacific coast of South America, water of Spanish King Philip.

They first stopped for water and food on today's island of Mocha, where the natives took them for Spanish conquerors. The skirmish almost ended tragically for Drake's crew, nevertheless soon the roles changed. For the next 5 month Drake would plunder Spanish settlements, like Valparaiso, where he acquired 25 000 pesos in gold, Lima and Arica, took over Spanish ships. Seldom were there any fatalities. In Callao Drake learned, that the CACAFUEGO galleon loaded with treasures has just set off on a race to Panama. The English began the chase. It ended in a huge victory: 13 chests of silver coins, 80 pounds of gold, and 26 tons of silver was their capture.

On September 26, 1580, Drake, in the Golden Hinde, anchored outside of Plymouth but did not port. Drake stopped some local fishermen and asked about the Queen. Drake finally anchored his ship near St. Nicholas's Island in Plymouth Sound, and waited for his wife and the Mayor of Plymouth to bring word of the Queen. Word finally came that the Queen was alive well and on the throne.

On September 26, 1580, Sir Francis Drake became the second man to sail around the world, and the first Englishman to accomplish this feat. Drake received £10,000 from the Queen for his accomplishment, as well as a miniature of herself and a green silk scarf embroidered with the words "The Almighty be your Guide and your Protector to the End." However, the talk of piracy and the treasure taken from Spain eventually led to Drake's loss of favor in the eyes of the Queen.

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks to everyone for their replies....

oh my outwest, what nice nice detailed research! I feel lucky to belong to a forum with such a variety of knowledge, skill, and intelligence and research abilities.

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Silver567

Posts: 17
Registered: May 2006

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver567     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The spoon is desirable as it cross references with many collectors

Silver
Spoons (Silver)
Commemorative Ware
Naval History
Art nouveau (the style is a lovely Art nouveau)

Adam P

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outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was a copy/paste job. wink

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
wink @ outwest lol great job

adam ty

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 11:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PK&P in a shield would be Page, Keen and Page of Plymouth, who registered their marks in London as gold and silver workers in 1900, 1903 and 1904.

The original firm was founded in 1811, and the partnership of the men whose names the firm bears was dissolved in 1872, but the name was retained. In 1900 the firm consisted of James Hearder Page and his two sons, Reginald George Page and James William Frederick Page. The firm was still in existence after WWII.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 06-05-2006).]

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What did you cut and paste from?
quote:
... however Queen Elisabeth also gave 1000 crones for it.

Wonder what a 1,000 crones did for Drake.

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wonderful information swarter. That would fall in line with Paul's date mark of 1903.

I am thinking of framing the spoon, and hanging it among my paintings of old sailing ships. Any better ideas for displaying it, in the same area as the paintings? Three of the paintings came from a shop in England, so I liked the idea of them being together.
Dale, too funny. smile

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 01:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Venus,

You might try going to a do-it-yourself frame shop to see if they could arrange the print and the spoon in the same frame. One spoon by itself would be awefully small.

Dale,

You have asked the toughest question social historians face - what exactly did a given sum of money at a moment in time actually buy? We have income figures for Victorian Engalnd, for example, but little info on the cost of items. Anyway, mister Drake did fine. In addition to this award, he broke off engaging the main body of the Spanish Armada to capture a single ship for the prize money it brought him. He was also responsible for a massacre of Irish settlers and was a rabid religious fanatic. Not an historical character I have ever wanted to meet!

What I am curious about, is why the commemorative spoon was struck when it was and where it was sold. The replica of the Golden Hinde in Clink Street London had yet to be built. Perhaps the naval museum in Plymouth. 1903 was not the anniversary of any red-letter date in Drake's life, but it was just before the beginning of the Anglo-German Naval race that commenced with the launching of HMS Dreadnought in 1906. Perhaps this was part of naval enthusiasm campaign.

Regards,
Tom

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Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would guess that this is simply a souvenir of Plymouth, bought at the town's main retailer.

Designed to celebrate the town's most famous son. (a bit like buying a spoon with witches as decoration in Salem Mass.!)

I would also guess that the spoon was made for Page, Keen & Page by Levi & Salaman in Birmingham. PK&P would then have 'sponsored' the hallmarking of the spoon in London.

Incidentally, the Coat of Arms on the back of the bowl is that of Plymouth, Devon, England.

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting information Tom and Silver Lyon (love that nic). Tom the ships are oil and all framed nicely. The 3 from London were all framed at the same shop. Can tell you the name if I take them down and look. The only none oil (of the ships)is a lithograph of one and it is also framed and glassed. I have a Frederick Ogden seacape in the grouping but it is framed and glassed. Good idea tho. Guess I will just have to find a nice ship painting not framed or a print of one.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Try googling "hisoric ship prints" or "Golden Hinde." You may find some online prints of the ship.

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
good idea tom....

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 08:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes indeed, this is one of the toughest questions for the historian. Makes me glad I never persued that degree in economic history.

What struck me is that the term 'crone' is used. Which is probably not a unit of currency but a term for an old woman. Struck me as funny. Unless crone is a kind of money measure.

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dragonflywink

Posts: 993
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just assumed that someone, way back when, used a creative spelling of Crowns or that there were some Danish Krones in the treasury. Made more sense than giving Drake 1000 old women.

Cheryl wink

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
English spelling was still not standardized in Elizabethan England. Dog, Dog, Dawg, could all designate the barking house pet. "Crone" probably is a variant of crown. Now, precisely what a crown was worth in 1580 is the $64,000 question (or is it the 64,000 crone question?!).

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