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tline3open  English ladle around 1760

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Author Topic:   English ladle around 1760
Hose_dk

Posts: 400
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 02-22-2009 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[07-0640, 08-0587]

Direct delivered from auction purchase. Original England, bought in USA and now returned to Europe - to me.



The story might be know to most of the forum members. But here it is anyhow.

Seller said: Handle made of horn or wood, facsimile 1758 British coin, no hallmarks but tested for silver. Unusual and early silver item.

So most of the description was correct. However the coin is original in fact both coins are. (2 coins - more to follow)

Horn or wood.



It is neither because it is from a whale. In the whales mouth we have barder. And that is what the handle is made of. The ladle is for hot punch so we need a handle that does not transport the heat. Normally a wooden handle is used and at the end of the wood is a ball made of ivory. But not in this case. The bard - on structure it is a line of threads. So if you drill into the end to fasten a ivory ball - you destroy it. Therefor the silver end. As expected. The whales bard can be compared to our nails. It is the same sort of material. When the bard is boiled it becomes soft and can be formed. When twisted and fixed - when it becomes cold it keep the shape.

The 2 coins. The one in center 1758 dates the piece.



An English shilling. It cannot be older. Among 1760 + 30 years. See the kartusch it is pure rococo.

That's where we are in time.



The second coin - that is the rest of the bowl. It is made out of a second coin. And therefore it has no hallmarks - it is not supposed to have hallmarks.

You take a large silver coin. You heat it and then you start hammering. From the center in cirkels out towards the coin edge. You must never hit the edge.

But you get close to the edge. See how the edge of the bowl is grooved. Bear in mind that the bowl has a larger diameter than the coin - therefore "the space between each ..-

When heating and hammering the silver becomes very thin and the edge get weekend. Therefore never hit the edge.

As it is a coin - no hallmarks is expected. Is it also a British shilling or is it a half crown - or a crown?? don't know, anyone have an opinion? We do not know which silver smith that made this. But we know that it is a time consuming process. Therefore they stopped manufacture. The cost of silver was (approx) 80% of the items price. Add the handle, and the craftsmanship, sales and promotion - in total 20%. That's why they stopped with these time consuming processes. Sheffield plate was introduced and machine was invented.

Now we have the bowl, and the handle. It is now time to make the ornamentation. Think how time consuming that process was. Every little thing is made by hand with a hammer. And still the 20% should cover all that time too. And see how good he was - oh it is nice. I don't know how long the hammering process took - but we talk days.

Today nice but useless.

I have a Swedish friend and he has one similar. He told me the story of his. And I have been searching for one.

And there on line my first buy. Sellers description dated and told us that it was silver. So that was OK. He just did not know this little story regarding the manufacture. I suppose that everybody here knows about use of coins. But I have now given an example.

Interesting and nice - I think.

Please comment and correct me. I would like to know more. I have been told that these are common in England - In Denmark they are not.


Thanks.

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Hose_dk

Posts: 400
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 02-22-2009 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


Seems to be to hard to upload - to many pictures. So here is the edge - see how close but still not hit it.

I am talking about right side of picture, at the left side you see the edge of the shilling in the middle - that one is not touched.

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swarter
Moderator

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Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 02-22-2009 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The correct English term for "whalebone" is baleen - plates of keratin, like compressed hairs, that the whales use to strain plankton (minute floating organisms), small fish and shrimp (krill) from the water that they take into their mouths. They then squeeze the water out through the rows of baleen, retaining the plankton.

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Hose_dk

Posts: 400
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 02-22-2009 01:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes thank you. On this picture one can see that a few of the "hair" is missing.

One was lost by me - it was loose and I could take it away - like pulling and it kept getting loose - should I do something - a kind of wax?? to preserve the handle.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 02-22-2009 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These ladles with coin bowls are relatively common in England. The bowls were made from larger coins: dollars or crowns (five shilling pieces). In shaping the bowl the protective decoration round the rim of the coin, intended to prevent coin clipping, was left untouched. In the case of an English crown, this decoration took the form of lettering that reads: decus et tutamen anno regni .. followed by a number for the year of the monarch's reign. This translates as "an ornament and protection, 5th (or whatever) year of the reign". This lettering is still just about legible on my example. If a crown coin was used for yours as well, you may also be able to spot some of this lettering round the rim of the bowl.

It was the retention of this detail which made it clear that a coin had been used, thus guaranteeing the fineness of the silver and avoiding the need for hallmarking.

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 02-22-2009).]

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Hose_dk

Posts: 400
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 03-24-2009 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the reply. You are right regarding promoting the site - no reason.
It is some time since I learned the story and I have searched for one. After my bye I have seen multibel of these - funny they just pup op.

Mine does not have the text at edge. It is grooved (I think the word is)

[This message has been edited by Hose_dk (edited 03-24-2009).]

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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 03-25-2009 08:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Although you believe that it would have taken "days" to produce this ladle, I would expect that a good silversmith in the late 18thC could have easily produced one in less than a day. Perhaps middletom would care to comment, or Fred Z. A skilled craftsman (who didn't work just an 8 hour day then) was quick and efficient.
Thank you for the detail and comments on your ladle, they were very clear and interesting.

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Hose_dk

Posts: 400
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 07-14-2009 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for the response - you might be right, I just ??

Never the less I have just been to Guernsy and bought this one - 10 cm long, London 1805. Not made of a coin, but a small one.


Might start a collection.

But why so small? silver expensive - yes but what was a 10 cm long one for?

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 07-14-2009 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Possibly used for toddy (whisky or rum and sugar in hot water). Toddy ladles are smaller and shorter than punch ladles but usually around 15 cm so a bit longer than yours. They are more common in Scotland than England. Looking at the proportions I wonder whether the handle on your ladle has been shortened at some stage in its life, perhaps to remove damage?

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Hose_dk

Posts: 400
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 07-15-2009 02:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Toddy - yes.

The size was a little underestimated. the handle is 10cm. From bottom of bowl to tip of silver at other end it is 15 cm.

The end with the silver top is not made that nice - it could have been changed.

The finish where handle meets bowl is much nicer.
I have not seen this difference when I bought it. But that could be the case.

The weight of the entire piece is 12 gram. So silver can only be around half of that. The bowl is 4cm x 4,4cm x 2cm. The silver is so thin - only like 3 or 4 pieces of paper. but I supposed it has fulfilled its mission - so no need for waste of silver.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 07-15-2009 11:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Whether or not the handle has been repaired, it was an interesting buy. You did better than I did many years ago when I was a novice collector, young and naive. I was sold a pair of toddy ladles as being from Edinburgh, 1782 (see picture). Only much later did I realize that they were reproductions from 1908 - same date latter but in a differently shaped punch.



I associate toddy ladles with Scotland - different drinking habits north of the border. Perhaps yours was made for one of the many Scots who moved south. Most Scottish toddy ladles that I see are all silver like the other example in my picture though this one comes from Newcastle, the English assay office nearest to the Scottish border. They are similar to sauce ladles but with relatively longer and more upright handles. There seem to be far fewer with whalebone handles. I don't know whether that means fewer were made or just that fewer have survived because they are more easily damaged.

What I think of as punch ladles are often also described as toddy ladles but I prefer to reserve the term for these smaller ladles to avoid confusion.

Incidentally, I wonder whether this thread ought to be moved to the British forum?

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11573
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 07-15-2009 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Incidentally, I wonder whether this thread ought to be moved to the British forum?

Since everyone participating int this thread has access to the British Forum .... it is a good suggestion. Thanks agphile.

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