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How lucky am I.

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Author	Topic: How lucky am I.
obnock Posts: 27 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 04-17-2006 04:54 PM [26-1013] My parents dipped into their silver box for my birthday last week and pulled out this wonderful sugar caster, they didn't know anything about it but was sure it's not English as it hasn't got the lion passant, assay office stamp etc. On the bottom there were some hallmarks but none that I recognized. I assured them I would be able to come up with a full account after I had spoken to my SSF chums. Here is a picture of caster. I hope you agree it's rather pretty. Now here's the hallmarks. I hope you can see the Erased lions head, and the half mark of Britannia hiding under the Ke and last the stylized G that denotes Queen Anne 1702. What my parents had given me was silver of the Britannia Standard. This was introduced in 1697. In order to render coin silver clippings useless to a silversmith, the silver standard was raised from 92.5% to a purer 95.84%, the highest possible silver content before the metal became unworkably soft.This became known as the Britannia Standard,( not to be confused with Britannia metal). This new standard was replaced by the original sterling (925) in 1720. Well how lucky I felt, the caster now takes pride of place in my small collection. One thing though, I cannot identify maker Ke. during this new standard the makers had to use the first two letters of their surnames, no initials were allowed. Thanks in advance. IP: Logged
hello Posts: 200 Registered: Jun 2005	posted 04-17-2006 04:58 PM Very nice, hopefully someone can help [This message has been edited by hello (edited 04-17-2006).] IP: Logged
asheland Posts: 935 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 04-17-2006 08:20 PM Very nice, any engravings? Grimwade would be a good place to look for the maker's mark. I only wish I could find a copy... IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4132 Registered: Apr 99	posted 04-17-2006 08:36 PM Robert Keble, entered 1702. IP: Logged
rian Posts: 169 Registered: Jan 2006	posted 04-17-2006 08:39 PM Happy Birthday obnock! That is one sweet present. What are the dimensions? How does the top fit on the body of the caster? IP: Logged
SusanT Posts: 104 Registered: Nov 2005	posted 04-17-2006 09:02 PM What a treasure! Here are a few possibilities for "Ke" from Seymour Wyler's OLD Silver English-American-Foreign (1967): Wm. Keatt. ent. 1687 - used capitalized KE; 1706-1707 Launcelot Keatt, ent 1701 - used capitalized KE; 1709-1710 Launcelot Keatt use Ke; Jno. Keigwin, ent. 1710 - used KE; Robert Keble, ent. 1702 - used Ke; Robert Kempton, ent. 1710 - used KE; and John Keigwin, ent 1710 - used Ke. ------------------ IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-17-2006 11:10 PM Grimwade confirms that the maker is Robert Keble (No, 1866), but gives the date of entry of this, his second mark, as 1710. Although the entirety of the date letter is unclear, the date letter does appear to be that for 1702-3, and not that of the similar letter for 1709-10, so there may be a problem, which will require further exploration. Keble's biography states that he was apprenticed in 1699 and did not gain his freedom until 1706. If all this is correct, he could not possibly have marked silver himself in 1702 or 1703. I realize that Wyler is the only source available to many people, but it is obsolete and cannot be relied upon, so it should be used with caution, if at all, and not without confirmation from later, more reliable sources. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 04-17-2006).] IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-17-2006 11:40 PM I read the date letter as that for 1711, making it match with the maker's mark for that time. IP: Logged
venus Posts: 282 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 04-18-2006 07:53 AM sweeeeeeeet! glad you had a Happy one too. Think your parents might adopt me? heh IP: Logged
obnock Posts: 27 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 04-18-2006 09:17 AM Here's a couple of pics showing how the top fits. It is approx 6ins tall with no engravings on the body. One question I think one can see that there is M W A engraved next to the hallmarks and there is a signature which looks like Mcwjwj 07,which is obviously not right,scratched on to the bottom just above the date mark, could this be a repairers mark dated 1807 or 1907?. What could the W M A mean?. Thanks for the birthday wishes and thanks for all the advice. IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 04-18-2006 09:35 AM The configuration of the initials usually indicate that the M would be the surname of a married couple who's first names begin with W and A. Perhaps a wedding gift to the young couple. Fred IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-18-2006 01:19 PM Adelapt is correct - the date mark should be for 1711-12, which does fit the biographical time frame. The alphabet in this cycle can be difficult to deal with - especially from drawings. There are three similar letters, one with a single bar projecting beyond the circle (1709), one with an additional (diagonal) bar touching, but within the edge of the circle (1702), and a third in which the diagonal bar does project beyond the circle (1711). This is a good illustration of the difficulty of relying on drawings, as the table I consulted (Jackson III) and one other (Bannister) do not show clearly that the diagonal bar bends downward on the outside of the circle, and it is also not clearly seen in the photograph - it probably is there, but I did not recognize it as such, as it resembles the adjacent scratches. Only in a third table (Jackson II) is it clearly drawn. I do not have an actual example of this year to compare - does anyone have a clearer one that they could photograph and post? The lighting in the second photogtraph of the marks is better, but the date letter is cropped too closely to see enough of it. Obnock, do you have a less closely cropped version of this same photo that you could post? [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 04-18-2006).] IP: Logged
obnock Posts: 27 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 04-18-2006 01:55 PM Sorry used wrong photo codes. here they are again. As you can see one side of the mark is none to clear. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-18-2006 02:24 PM Maybe not, but there is enough in the top photo to show that the bent extension is there. This is a good illustration of the role played by directional lighting in photographing marks. Thanks for the quick response. You can use the edit function (the pencil and paper icon at the top of your post) to correct an existing post, rather than starting another one with the corection. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 04-18-2006).] IP: Logged

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