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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 Mystery spoon
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| Author | Topic: Mystery spoon |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 10-31-2009 12:47 AM
  
This is a spoon I've had for some years. Never been able to tie it down - the marks are a relatively poor effort at British hallmarks. The "maker's mark" if that is what it is, looks rather like an ear of wheat. If there are letters in it, they are illegible. Seems odd for an outright fake, and seems to have some age to it. Any opinions on it would be most welcome thanks. IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 10-31-2009 08:17 AM
An interesting spoon. I’ve confessed in other threads that I am far from the most reliable person when it comes to marks but I agree with you that I would be inclined to regard these marks as fakes rather than pseudos. The shouldered Old English style flourished briefly in the 1760s/1770s (though revived at various periods subsequently) and your marks seem to me to be an attempt to imitate marks of c.1770, but I can’t make out what the “date letter” is actually meant to be. I wondered about the Lyon and Twinam forgeries but can’t tie your marks in to any of the examples I have seen published. The monogram also looks wrong and out of period to me. Oddly, the outline of the letters, but not the decorative detail, is similar to the Montgomery and Pembroke monogram on Nyoman’s Paul Storr plate that was discussed in the New Members’ Forum a little while ago. My best guess would be that both the marks and the monogram are late 19th century. They might have been applied to a genuinely old but unmarked spoon to “add value” or to a new spoon to fake age. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 10-31-2009 08:52 AM
Hi, A nice puzzler. Looking at the close-up of the handle, it looks like it has a nice undisturbed patina apporpriate for its age, and the monogram does not look like it was recently done. So, at least the base of the spoon looks to be old. The mark area looks wrong though, but that may just be the picture. How does the patina around the mark look under magnification? Also, the bowl looks like it might have been reshaped and/or buffed? Anyway, I think you have an old spoon that has been modified, but not entirely made up. Brent IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 10-31-2009 11:51 AM
The elaborate style of the engraving does not look English or American to me, and I do not think there is anything fake about the spoon (if fake equates to counterfeit). The marks, of which I think I have seen one or two of in the past, may be genuine (or at least crude phms), but from where I am not sure at the moment. If nothing further materializes here, we can consider moving this to the Continental Forum and see what contributors there can provide. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 11-01-2009 07:51 AM
I would find it helpful to see a pic of the marks from straight above rather than at a n angle. Might help. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 11-01-2009 10:29 AM
Brent I will not swear to the following but have been told by a Metallurgist that Old Patina on Silver can be duplicated by subjecting the object to repeated heating in a high oxygen atmosphere. I have never tried it as I have no way to ensure the oxygen levels. He did not say anything about temperatures or percentage of oxygen. Even 'experts' appear to be capable of 'old wives tales', who knows. IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 11-01-2009 02:43 PM
I will try for a good overhead photo of those marks. The stem has a good patina, the light flattened it. From memory, the bowl was vigorously cleaned (or buffed) - will check. Thanks all. IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 11-01-2009 02:50 PM
A few second thoughts on reflection. I think Swarter has a point when he suggests a possible continental origin. It would explain the unusual style of the monogram. I originally used the term fake for the marks because British colonial pseudo marks are, I think, generally a feature of the first half of the 19th century. A spoon of this pattern would be unusual in that period as far as British fashions are concerned and I thought these marks seemed to be trying specifically to simulate English marks of the 1760s/early 1770s. However, if so, they are a pretty crude attempt - even down to the lion passant facing the wrong way. Looking again at the photo I think the marks are original to the spoon, the inward curves to the side of some of the punch marks the result of finishing after the marks had been applied, so I now discard my suggestion that they may have been a later addition and I wait with interest to see if anybody is aware of similar marks that were used elsewhere. IP: Logged |
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