posted 09-08-2009 03:55 AM            

I've always found it near impossible to read monograms, so if anyone can help me to decipher this one, I'd much appreciate it. Same goes with the amoral coat of arms if also possible.

Chances are this monogram and coat of arms is for a royal or titled family. This plate is identical in pattern (but not monogram) to a group sold at auction dating the same year (1834) and bearing the monogram of Robert Henry, 12th Earl of Pembroke and 9th Earl of Montgomery (1791-1862):

Also, what are silver collector's thoughts about such a large amoral engraving? I have quite a number of amoral Chinese export ceramics in my collection which are highly prized, but on silver, is this considered as less desirable?

Many thanks in advance for any help, advice and opinions.

posted 09-08-2009 06:52 AM            

Of course I meant armorial and not amoral! What was I thinking?

posted 09-08-2009 09:02 AM            

T o the serious silver collector contemporary armorials and inscriptions are desirable and particularly so if they help establish provenance. The arms seem to be those of Harris, Earl of Malmesbury (created 1800) which would explain the M in the monogram. The motto translates as "Remember your country everywhere" - appropriate enough because the 1st Earl was a diplomat.

The silver will have been bought by the 2nd Earl who inherited the title in 1820. I gather that one of his main claims to fame was the meticulous record-keeping of all the game he shot.

posted 09-08-2009 02:29 PM            

Thanks for making the correction.

posted 09-08-2009 04:47 PM            

The figures under the hallmarks are interesting. It would seem the Earl had a dinner service of at least 69 pieces in silver (I imagine the numbering covered more than just the plates but he may have had something like 24 plates in each of three different sizes or 36 in each of two sizes!) and I assume the 20,1 is a scratch weight: 20 ounces and one pennyweight Troy. Those were the days - but only if you were born into the right family.

posted 09-08-2009 06:46 PM            

For the arms:

“HARRIS, EARL OF MALMESBURY. Azure a cheveron erminois between three hedgehogs or and a chief argent charged with the black eagle of Prussia.”

And the crest:

“MALMESBURY, Earl and Baron of, and Viscount Fitz-Harris, (Harris) ; a hedgehog, or, charged on the side with three arrows, one in pale and two in saltier, ar., and across them barwise, a key, az”

posted 09-09-2009 12:10 AM            

Or do I mean immorial?

posted 09-09-2009 09:20 AM            

your notion that:
"pseudo-armorials that are simply added by the maker to increase the decorative qualities of an object in hopes of making it more marketable" bears questioning.

It is most unlikely that this would be the case, at least in England, and probably anywhere armorials were taken seriously.

It is a dodgy practice for dealers to add arms and/or crests to items to make them more saleable though, and is not uncommon.

posted 09-10-2009 07:17 AM            

I thought I would do a bit more digging before coming back with these challenges to my original assumption and that is when I stumbled across the other forum which is not one I have ever visited before. The key point to emerge there was that what I had read as an M with flourishes could be read as P and M intertwined for the Earl of Pembroke and Montgomery. If a Malmesbury bought up some of the Pembroke silver when it was sold that would explain the addition of the engraved crest.

My irritation was not that somebody brighter had got there first but that I had been left digging for an answer that had already been provided.

posted 09-10-2009 10:23 AM            

The fact is, it was only yesterday on that other forum that the definitive answer was finally discovered, and in fact just today that I was able to verify the accuracy of that information through another source.

Another reason in the delay to my responding here in a more timely fashion could be time zones. As I am in Bali, I am on GMT + 8 hours.

I'm sorry you feel that you wasted your time, but I have always been one to use multiple sources when doing any sort of research, and I always also seek a second opinion when dealing with medical doctors. I apologize for your irritation, but it is truly unwarranted.

In any event, I do want to thank you and the others who provided information and their opinions regarding my question about the monogram and coat of arms on this plate. What was discovered on the other forum seems to have decisively solved the "mystery" of the monogram and coat of arms on this plate.

According to Joseph R. Bliss, the author of "The Gerome and Rita Gans Collection of English Silver on loan to the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts" this is the monogram of Robert Henry Herbert, 12th Earl of Pembroke and 9th Earl of Montgomery (1791-1862).

Refer the illustration below of a silver basket also made by Paul Storr which appears in this book and bearing the identical monogram as seen in this plate:

However, the engraved coat of arms that appears on this plate being discussed is that of James-Howard Harris, third Earl of Malmesbury, (1807-1889) known as the Viscount FitzHarris from 1820 to 1841.

This coat of arms can be found in Edmund Lodge's book, "The Peerage of the British Empire" on page 374.

According to Bliss, "Robert Henry Herbert, 12th Earl of Pembroke and 9th Earl of Montgomery acquired at least two table services from Storr." He also writes that our 12th Earl of Pembroke was something of a renegade by Victorian standards having a tempestuous love affair with the Princess Ottavia Spinelli, the daughter of the Duke of Laurino. What could be better than a juicy love story to go along with a piece of Paul Storr silver?

From another source:

"Herbert succeeded to the titles on the death of his father in 1827 and took his seat in the House of Lords in 1833. Under a family agreement, his diligent younger half brother, the statesman Sidney Herbert, 1st Baron Herbert of Lea, took control of the family estates centred on Wilton House, Wiltshire. Subsequently by 1837 Herbert was living in Paris. He lived out his exile in the Place Vend�me. He died in Paris, where he is buried in the P�re Lachaise Cemetery, his house having been stripped of all the valuable furniture, plate and jewels that he had taken from Wilton more than 30 years previously."

Interestingly, this last detail, "his house having been stripped of all the valuable furniture, plate and jewels that he had taken from Wilton more than 30 years previously" likely accounts for the French import marks on the set of 12 plates sold by Christies that I reference in my first post.

So, how would the coat of arms for Lord Malmesbury end up on this plate? A hint could be found in the auction listing of the aforementioned set of 12 plates:

"Herbert succeeded on the death of his father in 1827 and took his seat in the House of Lords in 1833. In 1837 he was living in Paris, where Lord Malmesbury wrote of him, 'Lord Pembroke lives in great state in Paris, and is as famous for his cook as for his horses. He is a very handsome man' (Malmesbury, Memoirs of an ex-Minister, vol. I, p. 78)."

Of course all that establishes is that Lord Herbert and Lord Malmesbury were associated together, and the details of how Lord Malmesbury acquired this plate requires more research. However, as this plate does not bear a French import mark, that would seem to indicate that Lord Malmesbury acquired it either before Lord Herbert moved to Paris, or certainly before Lord Herbert died, and his house "having been stripped of all the valuable furniture, plate and jewels that he had taken from Wilton more than 30 years previously."

In any event, this plate certainly has a very interesting history recalling an often heard comment about antiques in general "if only this stuff could talk."

Any additional information, thoughts or ideas would certainly be very welcome. Many thanks again for all your help in solving this mystery.

posted 09-10-2009 12:34 PM            

Thanks for posting your very full outline of the story. That I was irritated (not as serious as being angry!) is, I think, understandable even though I can also understand your looking in more than one place for an answer and delaying a return to this site. I think the difficulty is that I see this as a forum for discussing silver, not just attempting to answer questions, and in this case important elements of the discussion were taking place separately. Anyhow, that is water under the bridge.

As regards how and when ownership of the plate was transferred, I think it would be worth investigating whether there was a sale following the Earl of Pembroke's death. When his house was stripped it was presumably to return valuable possessions to the family home at Wilton House where there would as a result have been multiple sets of silver so the surplus may well have been sold either then or not too long thereafter.

I don't think I would build too much on the fact the Pembroke and Malmesbury knew each other. The quotation about Pembroke's lifestyle is more gossip than an indication of friendship - they were very different personalities. The British aristocracy at that time was still a relatively small group who would all have known and gossiped about each other.

posted 09-10-2009 08:49 PM            

As it ended up, the love of his life was sent off to a convent and Lord Pembroke was himself arrested and died with no direct heirs.

posted 09-11-2009 03:03 AM            

An integral facet of Balinese culture is animism. But, unlike pure animists, we have absorbed only certain, and not all, aspects of animism along with other aspects of Buddhism and Hinduism.

Within this belief, certain objects can exhibit an aura that is somewhat close to that of living beings. I understand just how crazy this sounds, but it is very true within our culture. While we don’t believe such objects are truly “alive” they do reflect life in a way that we believe can be detected. This “ability” (for lack of a better word) to detect this residue of life within a material object is fairly common amongst most Balinese. Those objects that reflect such life forces are held as pusaka because within them, we can learn more about our past, or at the least, feel a deep association to our ancestors.

As a collector, I have lived with this my entire life. At the same time, I have often encountered Western collectors who explain their passion or desire for a piece along the lines of, “it spoke to me.” I honestly believe that this “speaking” to me means the same thing I am trying my best to explain. So, it would seem Westerners have the same ability. I think all people have this ability.

I have never known a serious collector, regardless of what they collect, to not have at least an inkling of the sense of an otherwise unexplainable reason for being drawn to an object. In many ways, collecting defies logic. Collectors don’t talk about this “magnetizing” draw all that much, rather, they rely more on those logical reasons that are more accepted within the oeuvre of their fellow collectors, dealers, and curators such as its form, its rarity, its condition, its provenance…on and on.

This is just food for thought, and my way of saying thank you once again.

posted 09-11-2009 09:26 PM            

I could not agree more with that statement and thank you for adding it to our discussion as this reality is very often overlooked.

Of course with silver or gold, it's unlikely to run into "humble pieces" but in our collection of textiles, ceramics and wooden ware, we have many pieces that not only speak of the creator, but of subsequent owners.

Slightly OT, but I want to also add that I am happy we are over your initial irritation. Having thought about that more, I can better understand your position and I appreciate your candor as well. Once again, many thanks!

posted 09-18-2009 08:39 PM            

A very good question indeed. Perhaps they were good friends. Clearly they knew each other as documented.

Like I wrote earlier, if only this stuff could talk!

posted 09-19-2009 12:43 AM            

Starting with one of our own, being a little upset that you were two timing us by consorting with another site... When a married person has two wives it is called Bigamy..

Now AG is the chemical symbol for silver.
Pronounce each letter by itself. AAA GEE.

Now put the word 'Big' in front of it..

Bigamy... Big A G.

Not everything on the site should be taken seriously.

I do like the hedgehog, and the bird with leg problems. The Brits are not without humor.. And the hart to go with it..

Hope you stick with us..

posted 01-21-2010 12:38 AM            

The coronet in the cypher lacks the raised posts and the strawberry leaves thus making this coronet one of a British baron. The coronet in the armorial lacks the strawberry leaves, thus making it appear to be the coronet of a Portuguese or Spanish viscount rather than a British earl.