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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 1802 London? Nine Pins Piece
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| Author | Topic: 1802 London? Nine Pins Piece |
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IshmaelRibar Posts: 9 |
posted 10-31-2007 12:19 PM
  
[26-1524] Hello all, This is my first post, hope it goes alright. I recently picked this piece up and was hoping for any feedback I might get on it. I think it's from London, 1802, but the scene looks very Germanic/Dutch. I wasn't able to find any pieces with scenes of people playing nine pins/skittles anywhere. The maker's mark is slightly effaced, but looks like "WF". There's also some sort of code scratched in the back. It measures about 6" in diameter and weighs a little over 3.5 troy. I look forward to any information anyone may be able to give and I thank you in advance. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 11-01-2007 09:52 AM
Hi Ishmael Ribar, At first a short reaction about your questions. Makers mark(silversmith I've to find out), there are perhaps two possibilities like you say WF or VF. Are you sure about WF? The sportif decoration is called KAATSEN (Dutch translated) I don't know if they also played it in Germany, but it isn't a intensif sport, smoke hangs around. I will find out about the portret because is made after a painted portret.(I recognize it from somewhere). The figures you're talking about is called a scratch-code (I've learned that from FWG also a member of this forum). He explained it is a kind of inventory control system. They used it for inventory in a shop or even in a household. The year letter mark is right 1802, but when I see a lot of other marks I see more a serie like first the lion head, second year letter mark etc. But I have to search for more possibilities to find out. Perhaps you can tell more about your silver interest and hobby, which silver are you collecting periods or countries? I will react when I know some more or meanwhile you get the wright answer from another member. From this side I collect Norwegian and Dutch silver/ed objects and started this summer with the hobby of collecting and research about a lot of silver. There are showed a lot of subjects about silver on this SMP Forum and you can try also the search function, than you can see if the subject has been treated before or that you can find a lot of information where you are looking for. Greetings Silverhunter. IP: Logged |
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IshmaelRibar Posts: 9 |
posted 11-01-2007 12:24 PM
Hello Silverhunter, I would like to start by thanking you for your reply. I picked this piece up where I am, Upstate New York. Historically, there's a large Dutch population, so I was thinking that this piece was made for export to Holland, or to the Dutch of America (any thoughts there?) You've definitely confirmed my feeling that it's at least dutch influenced. I focus mainly on 20th Century itmes and silver as a commodity. Collecting pieces is my passion. I've never seen a piece of Norweigen silver, or Dutch for that matter, though I hope I can be of assistance to you, and I thank you again. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 11-01-2007 04:43 PM
Ischmael Ribar, Thanks for your reaction, first I've looked at some websites and about your silvermarks I found in your combination 1. Standard mark: Sterling 2. City mark : London (like you knew) 3. Date letter : G ( also wright for 1802 ) 4. Duty mark : During the reign of King George III. I've looked over 400 dutch silversmiths tonight but I think because all silvermarks are English, also the silversmith has to be English and perhaps made it by a dutch example. Perhaps the plate is taken with emigrants from England to America. Perhaps you have all the marks, for to be sure I send the one's I founded tonight. IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 11-01-2007 05:39 PM
The scratched numbers are found on much silver - I've normally assumed (if they are not assay office scratch weights) that they were put on by pawnbrokers after a pledge . IP: Logged |
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IshmaelRibar Posts: 9 |
posted 11-01-2007 06:02 PM
Thank you for your help again. It doesn't look like a scratch weight, as I think they are letter "U/L/L", but could be some similar inventory code (pawn shop, antique, etc.) Was dutch subject matter popular in England at that time? Thanks again. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 11-01-2007 09:22 PM
Most of the Dutch or German looking "English" silver was made in Holland or in Germany and imported,marked with an English import mark - an "f" in the set of hallmarks and the sponsor's mark most often BM for Berthold Mueller, but other importers existed as well. If your piece would not have a set of Georgian hallmarks, I would put it in exactly this category - very hard to judge by looking at a photograph alone, one thing is clear though - English silver around 1802 did NOT look like your piece. IP: Logged |
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IshmaelRibar Posts: 9 |
posted 11-01-2007 11:56 PM
It certainly doesn't look very English, and I looked for the f, but it's not there. Would a foreign import piece not have an English set of hallmarks (sorry, a bit of a neophyte as far as this goes)? I did do a bit of research, and what I read stated England did not use the foreign mark until 1867. Is there any suggestions you have for determining more about it that I could inspect for myself? Thank you IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 11-02-2007 08:05 AM
Sorry to be so invisible lately -- impossible semester! What about the possibility here that the decoration was added later, elsewhere, to an older English piece? Rather like the berry spoon conversions that are so common.... IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 730 |
posted 11-02-2007 08:52 AM
Isn't is possible that the "English marks" are faux hallmarks such as you see on other Hanau pieces? Neither the design on the face nor the overall design of the piece fits with the date marks for English silver, so I don't think it's an adapted piece. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 11-02-2007 08:58 AM
Another possibility, and the point at which I would start, is that the marks are spurious and were added at some point by an unscrupulous person to make the dish more saleable. When you look at the markings and then at the dish they just don't go together. IP: Logged |
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IshmaelRibar Posts: 9 |
posted 11-02-2007 09:37 AM
What is Hanau? And what berry spoons do you speak of? The marks have wear consistent with the rest of the piece, so I don't think they could have been added much later. If they are faux marks, what do you think the country of origin is? Thanks again IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 11-02-2007 03:55 PM
I go with Kimo, I think these marks are put in and not authentic to the piece. The plate looks either Hanau or Schoonhoven, but as I mentioned before - it is hard to judge from a photo - try breathing on the mark and if you see an outline, then they are put in later. Hanau was a German production center, where many silversmiths made antique looking silver and also stamped them with spurious marks. I don't think that these marks are identical with any of the English "prestige marks" used in Hanau. Also see the articles about Hanau in Silver Magazine. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 11-02-2007 03:59 PM
At first I've to correct a mistake I have made about the name I mentioned about the game it is "Kegelen" (primitif bowling game)and the game I mentioned wrong "Kaatsen" that looks like the englisch playing their cricket. I've readed all reactions till know and it becomes difficult to find the solution. The houses which are showed at the decoration are only builded in the south of Holland in the province called Limburg. It can be made by a silversmith who has visited this area and knowing these facts to work out in this pattern or used a picture of a painting with (I think) typical dutch look. At the other side: So I follow the opinion of FWG in this case.
IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 11-02-2007 09:09 PM
Unfortunately it is a fallacy to look at marks, figure out their date and think that one has learned everything there is to a specific silver piece. The right way is to learn about styles, look at the piece, put it into the right category and if the marks then confirm origin, date, etc. one has an authentic piece at hand. To learn about English silver styles, by far the best book is Peter Waldron: The price guide to Antique silver, Antique Collector's Club, Suffolk 1982 (but many times since reprinted and updated).Silverhunter please use the word "response" instead of "reaction". Sorry to say, but reading not guessing is the right way to get a serious collector. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 11-03-2007 04:57 AM
DB, I'm impressed by your great knowledge, so thank you very much. I'm still very happy with one of my many hobbies', I'm not a professional ofcourse and english is not my mother tongue. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 11-03-2007 06:51 AM
For my two cents the rim and decoration on this bowl remind me of late 17 cent sweet meat bowls but the interior decoration bears no relationship to the border at all. If one repoussed the interior after the fact it would have destroyed any earlier hallmarks. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 11-03-2007 08:38 AM
Anything is possible, but I have found that applying Occam's razor is the best path to finding the truth. Occam's razor is 'All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one.' The simplest explanation is this is either a Hanau object with either Hanau pseudomarks (which often are deliberately not crisply struck) or the marks were added to a Hanau or Hanau-like dish by a person who wanted to deceive. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 11-03-2007 09:26 AM
If you look at where the marks are relative to the embossed decoration, it wouldn't be that surprising for them to survive the reworking, perhaps slightly flattened - exactly as one sees here. The central design looks dead typical for Dutch work, although the flowers do look more German. I'd read Occam's razor rather differently here: A) Hanau silver and its marks are preetty well known, and these marks are not known there, so far as anyone has yet indicated (I claim no expertise whatsoever in Hanau, but surely some of you experts would've seen something close enough to be more definite on this); B) The marks look pretty good as English; C) Silver is very easy to rework, in fact it's not uncommon for students even today to pick up an old piece of silver to modify; Therefore, I'd still be inclined to suspect a reworking of an older silver piece, done under any of several possible reasons. A berry spoon, BTW, is a serving spoon that has had its bowl embossed with an ornate design, typically fruit and/or flowers, often die-stamped and then cleaned up with a little repoussé and sometimes engraving. One sees them fairly often on Georgian spoons, and it was once widely thought that they dated to that period. It is now generally accepted that they were done by Victorians (and later), either because they wanted a fancier piece for serving, or because such a reworked piece would bring a much better price than a plain Georgian spoon. They still often do, but there are many collectors now who shun them as 'unoriginal'. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 11-03-2007 09:45 AM
The catalogue of Hanau marks is enlarged constantly - a lot of records got lost in WWII- I doubt that the catalogue will ever be complete, too many variations of two many companies. But these marks on the plate in question do look English. Another possibility would be the Lyon & Twinam forged marks - a typical one used is the one of London 1784. I looked in my library here for a catalogue of the Lyon & Twinam marks, but can't find anything in this mess here. I will inquire however and if I come up with something, I'll let you know. Lyon and Twinam were two silversmiths who transposed hallmarks into silver pieces and sold them on to the trade. There was a court case (1898), and during a search of Twinam's house dozens of punches and hundreds of articles were found - many with counterfeit marks, the cupboards and even the garden shed full of fakes. The Goldsmiths' Company later published an eight-page pamphlet describing these counterfeit marks. Yes, and the later chased spoons, are still marketed very successfully - every beginner bought one once. IP: Logged |
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IshmaelRibar Posts: 9 |
posted 11-03-2007 07:27 PM
I never thought so much information could be gleaned from one little piece. I don't think I'll come to a conclusion on this one just yet, although I do lean towards the decoration being later additions, if anything. Thank you so much for all your help, advice, opinions, etc. I hope my next post will elicit such a response. [This message has been edited by IshmaelRibar (edited 11-03-2007).] IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 11-03-2007 08:04 PM
IshmaelRibar, I hope somebody will place a photo for example and which is correspond with the shown silver object. Perhaps a silver object from Hanau or Schoonhoven.(I guess?) I think each one of us is trying to find a solution for your silver object. Only it's a pity when I give (also like a member)some facts about a list of marks, explaining the figures and READ each reaction from other members with respect. Visiting the head library, e-mail contact with some national and international antique shops to get/or give information. Following auction programs.etc. Slowly I learn about all that silver! I think that the purpose of this forum is, to help some one with giving information, to discuss the object but don't try to put somebody down. If you love reading you can read the headlines of this forum DB, thank you! Perhaps a moderator will give his reaction, thank you very much! IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 11-04-2007 05:35 AM
I will react with or without guessing! Greetings Silverhunter! IP: Logged |
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