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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 8 Crossed Arrows, griffin head on a castle?
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| Author | Topic: 8 Crossed Arrows, griffin head on a castle? |
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drdanintx Posts: 16 |
posted 02-21-2006 06:28 PM
  
[26-0915] Hi Everyone! I've been doing research on a particular coffee/tea service set that I have which has 8 crossed arrows on the bottom as it's hallmark as well as a "J*y" (could be P) on one of them? I found info on Alexander Clark which it may be, however, no picture of what their hallmark looked like. As well, on this set is what looks to be a Griffin head on top of a castle... any help you may be able to provide would be wonderful!!! Thank you in advance! I will post pictures as well! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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drdanintx Posts: 16 |
posted 02-21-2006 06:41 PM
Hi Again, After reading some other posting, I realized that you would like some information about me and what I'm doing... I have boxes upon boxes of silver, everything from flatware to statues which have been handed down to me from my father. I own a number of businesses (all water treatment related) and they keep me running day and night. Early in 05 I ran across one of the boxes in the attic which was filled with silver. I was fascinated by the intricate designs and began to research on the internet who made them & when. Well over a year later, it has become a personal hobby. I try and find out how the item(s) came into my families possession. I have a number of unique items (from what I can tell) and they are now displayed in an antique glass cabinet. I'm still going through and finding new objects all the time, but recently found this particular tea/coffee set at my mothers' house! I can't find any defining marks other than the arrows. Beautiful set though and I have pictures if anyone would like to see them... Thanks again, IP: Logged |
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rian Posts: 169 |
posted 02-21-2006 08:26 PM
Hello Dan, yes, please post pictures. We would all like to see them! IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 02-21-2006 10:46 PM
Hello, and welcome to the forums. Please post a photo of the marks as well as the pieces, as identifications attempted on descriptions alone can be unreliable. Crossed arrows are often associated with Victorian silverplaters, for example Hutton of Sheffield used six crossed arrows, and Creswick, also of Sheffield, used eight. Creswick made both Old Sheffield Plate as well as electroplate. The castle and animal head could be someone's family crest on Old Sheffield, or it could be a later trademark of a firm in America using crossed arrows in imitation of English electroplate. So you see why photographs are necessary. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 02-21-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 02-21-2006 11:57 PM
Very frequently designs like you describe were used by companies making silver for department stores. They had psuedo hallmarks in imitation of older silver. Please tell us more. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 02-22-2006 10:23 AM
Welcome to the forum and thank you for telling us a bit about your interests. I'm sure we can help you learn about much of your silver and silver plated heirlooms, though of course there is a great deal still unknown about this field and answers are not always possible on everything. As has been mentioned, clear photos of the overall object as well as closeups of any markings or designs really are essential for anything other than guessing. Please be sure to keep your pixel size to the forum limits - the details on how to post photos are outlined under the hotlink under the light green box at the top of every page here. IP: Logged |
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drdanintx Posts: 16 |
posted 02-22-2006 02:59 PM
IP: Logged |
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venus Posts: 282 |
posted 02-22-2006 05:28 PM
Looks gorgeous.... stop work long enough to drag it all out lol From the golden color I wonder if it is gold washed or silver over copper? or is it the way the light is shining on it? Glad you joined and hope to hear more from you and see more silver. The bug has bitten me bad, and while I cannot own all of it, it is a pleasure to look. Lynnda IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 02-22-2006 06:45 PM
The figure engraved within the reserves is a heraldic family crest, and might be described as "a griffon's head erased, gorged with a mural coronet," but I cannot find it represented in Fairbairn's Crests, so I cannot trell you which families might have used it. Of the two pictured, the lower one is the more accurately drawn; the two were obviously not done by the same hand. I would suggest hat the upper one (on the sugar bowl)was copied from the lower one (the creamer?) by an engraver who did not understand heraldic symbolism. This might imply that the set is an "assembled" one, with the sugar bowl added (or replaced) after the original purchase. Rather than there being a castle tower, the neck of the Griffon is encircled ("gorged" = bearing a gorget) by what is called a "mural coronet." [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 02-22-2006).] IP: Logged |
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drdanintx Posts: 16 |
posted 02-22-2006 09:06 PM
Thank you guys for all the help so far!!! From what I have found this is gold on the inside... I found the name of what looks to be the manufacture of the 8 crossed arrows, but I still am not sure... I have the name at the house from all the printed research that I go through at night... I will post the name of who it is tomorrow, I can't remember... Great Stuff! Thanks guys! IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 02-22-2006 11:37 PM
Thanks for sharing. It's a great piece! IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 02-23-2006 02:47 PM
I'm not sure about the "J * H" but the 8 crossed arrows mark shown looks like the Creswick mark that was later used by William Hutton on their Sheffield plate. Was there a person whose first name began with a "J" or and "I" at Hutton, either during or after William? I am also wondering a bit about the engraved crest as to why they would have engraved a crest rather than the coat of arms to which the crest is ancilliary (it sits on top as an added honor). The coat of arms would be the more meaningful engraving for a man who was entitled to its use. Does it appear to you that the crests might have been added after the fact to make them more marketable or do they appear consistent with the overall age and wear to the objects? IP: Logged |
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drdanintx Posts: 16 |
posted 02-23-2006 03:12 PM
It looks to me as though the marking are consistant in age, rub marks and overall apearance... not to say that they couldn't have been added later... IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 11-06-2007 02:30 PM
I still agree with swarter that the 8 crossed arrows marking is the T&J Creswick of Sheffield company - the one they used on their electroplated holloware. I don't think that the crest is specific to any particular family and is more likely purely decorative. A family would have used their coat of arms or even their armorial badge if they were being less formal rather than their crest. IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 11-07-2007 01:07 AM
Crests, which are only part of an armorial, are not necessarily unique to a single family. That being said, the crest here - a griffin's head erased, gorged with a mural coronet - is at least that of Gardner of Tunbridge Wells, Kentshire, if not others. (Gotta love Google Books, which houses an online treasure-trove of 19th century public domain books on armorials. Just today it enabled me to identify the coat-of-arms on a 1778 Wakelin & Taylor basket with such specificity that I was able to identify the original owner.) [This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 11-07-2007).] IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 11-10-2007 04:14 AM
The name Creswick is recognized by others but I only found some information that the firm was founded in 1811 and they made electro plated after 1852 Sheffield, England, UK. IP: Logged |
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