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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 Silver "Diploma"
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| Author | Topic: Silver "Diploma" |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-06-2003 07:54 AM
  
[01-0970] I have a question about the desirability of an item that I saw at a market. It was about the size of a small plate, was beautifully decorated, but could have no use as far as I could see. It was described by the seller as the equivalent of a silversmith's "Diploma". Meaning that the smith would be tested by a possible employer with a plain disk of un-tooled silver and was told to work on it and come back after a few hours to show what he was capable of. A quick examination showed the anchor for Birmingham England and a lion Passant as well as a letter date. This is as far as I got since the price had put me off such a useless item, but now I'm intrigued. Has anyone any info on this? IP: Logged |
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Stephen Posts: 625 |
posted 02-06-2003 11:20 AM
Just curious, what was the date? 20th century? [This message has been edited by Stephen (edited 02-06-2003).] IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-06-2003 11:59 AM
I don't have the date, but i suspect it was pre 20th century since the seller said that this was done long ago, before there was any other way to test skill levels. I do know the dealer, and though I no longer see this in the shop, I could still ask that question. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 |
posted 02-06-2003 12:49 PM
quote: What is the other way to test skill levels? Was it just a flat piece of silver with engraving. What other skills did it show? IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-06-2003 03:24 PM
To graduate from a design school now you must submit and be graded on an extensive "portfolio" of what you have thus far produced. My daughter is a grad of RI School of Design and their graduating jewelry design students were showcased in an exhibit attended by representatives of Napier, Monet, Trifari, etc. This is how they job shopped... and it is today's way to demonstrate what they could do. I can't say I'm having any luck finding documentation for the possibility of: "here's a bit of silver - show me what you can do." Who knows? Can anyone help me out here? IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-06-2003 03:42 PM
It was more than an engraved flat piece of silver. It had an intricate floral pattern and was quite contoured, so much so that it was useless as a container of any sort. I did not see any holes for hanging it either, which prompted me to ask "C'est quoi?" (What is it?) IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-07-2003 10:48 AM
Since I did note the Anchor that brings to mind Birmingham, I sent this question to the Birmingham, school of art and design. I'll let you know if they send a reply... IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 02-07-2003 12:10 PM
Once while helping close a jewelry store, I noticed some really nice repousee bracelets that I took to be Chinese export. They were not for sale. The elderly jeweler told me that these were pieces he had made in jeweler's school and represented his final exams. He had to make up items that would show his mastery of the various skills expected of a jeweler. He had also created a tea set that looked like it was made in China in the 1840's. This story sounds totally believable. IP: Logged |
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Paul Lemieux Posts: 1800 |
posted 02-07-2003 01:55 PM
doobees, did the seller have any specific background information to support the claim it was such a piece? What were the piece's dimensions? Could it have just been a decorative plate of some kind? IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-08-2003 10:14 AM
Thank you for all the interest and input... I will definitely go back to him and ask for more info, but as I said, the piece did not appear to be there when I went back to find out more. No, I know it could not have been a decorative plate because the surface was so randomely contoured so as to be a bit convex in places. It was round and about 4" across. IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-09-2003 04:43 PM
Well, here it is - the much discussed "Silver Diploma." What I have so far is the Anchor for Birmingham, Lion Passant for Silver, lowercase b in reserve perfectly matches 1901. I could not find the Maker - the initials are "W.G.K." There is also a tiny circular reserve after that with a swan punched upside-down (oops, red flag for anything upside-down?) Either way, I'm kinda bonded to the thing now... It'll look lovely displayed somewhere... (Hey, congratulate me on my 1st successful photo attachment. My daughter "hoover" did the others for me and walked me through this one)  IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 02-09-2003 06:34 PM
Now that I see a picture of it, it looks remarkably like an ashtray my grandfather used for his cigars. It wasn't as ornate, but had the same raised center. No idea if that was its intended purpose, but that is he used it for. IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-09-2003 08:06 PM
Thanks for the photo help! I love this site. Though I'm not a cigar smoker, it seems that if it was an ashtray, the cigars or whatever would roll off the raised area. Is there a purpose for aaan ashtry to be in this shape? Anyone else have one of these? ------------------ IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 02-09-2003 09:11 PM
Classically (and I certainly don't speak from experience, heaven forfend!) cigars, once lit, were never set down. The raised center was to gentle roll the accumulated ash off as necessary. This is not to say it isn't a dish for the 19th century equivalent of jelly babies; my grandfather would think nothing of utilizing cut crystal to hold used coffee grounds if it served the purpose. IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-10-2003 02:41 AM
Now that makes sense to me. It could surely be used for that. I have a chic cigar store right down the street and an antique store right across from it. I'll run my little ? on down. Too bad you're not a cigar smoker... we can get "cubans" here. I want you to know how much I've learned in the few short weeks I've been on this forum. Merci! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-10-2003 08:05 AM
Well, the antique store owner did verify that it was Birminghal silver dated 1901, but had not a clue what it was and did not seem to accept the "diploma" theory. He said it was nice - not the best quality work, in his opinion, but still a "jolie petit chose" - a pretty little thing. The cigar boutique owner said that it definitely was not meant as a cigar ashtray, b ecause it was too small and the cigar rolled off (he then proceeded to try it out with his own lit cigar.) I liked the ashtray theory because I could envision some old gent enjoying a fine cigar on a cold night. Maybe the mystery will remain? For now it will adorn our salon and be usuful as a source of speculation and interesting conversation. (The time difference here comes in handy! I was able to get this done while you all slept.) ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Paul Lemieux Posts: 1800 |
posted 02-10-2003 07:11 PM
The tiny swan hallmark you mention is a French import mark. IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-11-2003 12:25 PM
Of course! Made in England and bought in France - that would need an import mark. I'm just now getting my Tardy's for these zillions of different marks for the French system. Soon I'll be a whiz at the french marks, but thank you for the swan info. i'm just a beginner and have so much to learn. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-21-2003 02:18 AM
I have a bit of information about the maker of this "pretty little thing." He was W.G.Keight who registered his mark in Birmingham, 1901 for W.G.Keight and co. This is the same year of the letter date of this piece. The person who sent me this information was wondering if it was some sort of wine taster since the old ones had a bump in the center and it could have been reproduced in 1900. I can't see anyone drinking from this, but now the search goes on... ------------------ [This message has been edited by doobees (edited 02-21-2003).] IP: Logged |
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labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 02-21-2003 09:12 AM
Back to the original question a "diploma" is a masterpiece or chef-d'oeuvre. When the guild system ruled in France, England and other countries, after you trained for the required number of years under a master silversmith you presented yourself at the gild hall to graduate. you were given a certain amount of time to make a piece that would be made from scratch and would show the minimum amount of skill necessary to practice the trade. Usually this was a relatively simple item, a spoon, cup, etc. Since it had to be made from scratch with a time limit it was never a "masterpiece" in the sense of the meaning of today. If the bowl you have is really repoussee work it couldn't be a "masterpiece" in the guild sense since it would take too long to complete. Maurice IP: Logged |
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doobees Posts: 277 |
posted 02-23-2003 08:20 AM
Mauurice - Thank you so much for the information. Where can I find references that will educate me more on the guild system? I'm truly just a rock-bottom beginner on the subject of silver and silver collecting. For years now, I've collected what appealed to me, but had no idea what was what. Now you will see how much of a novice I am at this... My question is this: Since this piece is quite lightweight, (though certainly not paper-thin or thin enough to have holes anywhere or to appear worn out) - I was guessing that it was die stamped, not repoussé. How exactly can I tell? If it was stamped, then it seems that it could have been done rather quickly. Is it out of the question to think that it was stamped for a "masterpiece" - or was that not a skill recognized for acceptence into the guild. Do you have any guesses on what it is. It is not at all deep enough to be a bowl of any kind. If it is a plate it has very very little actual capacity due to the large bump in the center... ------------------ IP: Logged |
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labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 02-23-2003 05:33 PM
I would think about any book on antique English or French silver would discuss the regulation and guilds. I don't think die stamping could be considered a skill, since it would be little more than pushing a button. A modern piece would not have the same type of decoration as real repoussee, it would be perfect especially in the sense fo symetry. As to what it is, got me. The Victorian period started the onset of all sorts of oddities. When in doubt I just say it is a buying and selling thing, not a worrying and wondering thing. IP: Logged |
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