1600th Century Sterling Silver Plate w/Unknow Mark

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1600th Century Sterling Silver Plate w/Unknow Mark

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Author	Topic: 1600th Century Sterling Silver Plate w/Unknow Mark
Gozer unregistered	posted 09-27-2004 12:18 AM [01-1773] I recently acquired what looks like a 1600th Century Plate about 30" wide with a 12" depressed circle in the middle. It's definitely a handmade out of Sterling Silver, as it's pliable, it's Repousse and it shows a Dog chasing a Wolf chasing a Deer chasing a Lion. The Owner's Mark or Makers' Mark is on the front of the plate hidden within a leaf. However, I believe the Mark is a coat of arms or a family crest. It looks like Star Treks Logo but with a little square box in between the two top points. Within the square box is a symbol possibly a swan but could be a head. Next as far as I can tell the next line is E B S (with the B being Larger then the other letters). Not sure if the first letter is an E. Next line is most certainly "L D" (no quotes). There was a note that came with the plate which read 1670, but it has gone missing. What I do know is that it was a gift to a Bishop, but that's all I know. I looked through Collins Gem Antique Marks, but no luck there. I believe it's the only one of its kind and perhaps very valuable. It's definitely an artifact for a museum. All the info on this piece points to the 1600th century or later. Here are the pics and the Mark. I can take more if you like. IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 09-27-2004 11:09 AM There are many things to look for to authenticate a 17th century item of silver. Ultimately you would need to have it looked at by someone who has handled a great many of these items. Marks are easily forged. Caution and a health sense of doubt are good things to have when looking at what might be a museum masterpiece. Fred IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4132 Registered: Apr 99	posted 09-27-2004 03:35 PM Much more likely English silverplate, late 19th/early 20th century. The swan-ish bit is an ampersand; the mark is E & S B LD, the last being the short form of Limited. IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 09-27-2004 09:25 PM The work on the plate is superb and I am concerned that there is no quality mark. WEV may be right that this is plated work The mark does not have the look of 17th century marks. I still suggest you have it tested and appraised by someone who can handle it and search for further marks. Fred IP: Logged
Gozer Posts: 5 Registered: Sep 2004	posted 09-27-2004 09:43 PM Thanks for your comments. The light weight of the plate and the pliability of the metal suggests it's sterling. I've held plated plates before and they're heavy! This one is light. I'm going to have it tested and I'm in the process of contacting two established appraisers. I agree the work is superb. I read that between 1336 and 1697 most silversmiths only used one mark. And after 1697 the 4 hallmarks were introduced. So a quality mark wouldn't have been used then. It's also interesting that the mark was placed on the front of the plate instead of the back. I've checked for further marks there are none that I can see, so far. I'll keep you posted. IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 09-27-2004 11:28 PM Your fine plate is almost certainly an electrotype copy of an early piece. There were some English manufacturers who were able to produce almost exact replicas of ancient silver using the electrotype process, which as I understand it is akin to taking an mold of an object and thickly plating the interior of the mold. Electrotypes are quite thin and pliable, as your piece is. The mark on your piece is the registered maker's mark for Edward Barnard & Sons, Ltd. of London, early 20th C. More later, Brent [This message has been edited by Brent (edited 09-27-2004).] IP: Logged
Gozer Posts: 5 Registered: Sep 2004	posted 09-27-2004 11:50 PM Thanks Brent. IP: Logged
PhilO Posts: 166 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 09-28-2004 04:39 AM Just to pin the date down a bit more precisely, Barnards used this mark on sterling between about 1910 and 1930. I agree that this is not solid silver as it would have been fully hallmarked, it being strictly illegal to sell unmarked silver in the UK. IP: Logged
Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 Registered: May 2003	posted 09-28-2004 07:05 AM It is possible that Edward Barnard & Sons made these dishes both in silver and silverplate. A similar example appeared on an Italian internet site which now appears to have closed: Although there are no detailed photos of the marks to back this up, it is described as sterling silver made in 1905 with "the punch mark of Walter, John, Michael and Stanley Barnard". Pointing to similar originals from which this dish might have been copied, the site mentions one "made in London in 1664 and decorated with leaves, flowers, bears and unicorns is in the collections of the Victoria & Albert Museum in London (N°549-1874)." And "Another example is the tazza brought to the Czar Alexis in 1664 by the Earl of Carlisle, ambassador for Chales II, and now kept in the Cremlin. Once again the border is decorated with leaves, flowers, a horse, a stag, a wild boar and a dog (see Oman - 1961 ill. N° 32)." Does anyone have the Oman 1961 reference? IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 09-28-2004 08:06 AM I believe one of these was done on Antiques Roadshow, so if one is willing to do some research.... IP: Logged
Gozer Posts: 5 Registered: Sep 2004	posted 09-28-2004 11:25 AM Thanks to all in helping me realize the true nature of this piece. I like it and I'm still going to have it tested to verify it's silver content and also have it appraised too. I'll keep you posted. IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 09-28-2004 01:21 PM If it is helpful electrotype or electroforming can be dedected (in some cases) by a close inspection of the back. Because the silver is deposited on to, or in to the mold the surface on which the silver is depositing is a nodular build up that can not be controled well. The best electroformers on a good day get a great surface that is difficult to detect, the worst looks like a minature feild of bumps and nodes. Finishing can disguise this but will rarely make it undetectable. Also these copies are pure silver and if never heated to soldering temperature ( for repair etc.) are tempered hard out of the tank but still soft in terms of wear and scratches. Close up pictures of the back would be interesting? One other give away is tiny little spheroids on the front surface that were not removed in the final finishing/polishing, they form between the mold and the work (I do not know why, bubbles in the rubber?) and if not picked off with a graver or polished off they can be seen. One is posibly in the picture of the mark in the chased oxidized depression left and down? I have a friend who worked at Barnards in the 70's I'll ask if they were still making copies... Sorry to come in late, hope this adds. IP: Logged
Gozer Posts: 5 Registered: Sep 2004	posted 09-28-2004 10:32 PM Everyone that's commented on this piece sure knows their stuff. Without this site I'd still be in the dark. Good News. Next week I'll have a meeting with the Bishop that received this plate as a gift and I'll get the history behind it. I haven't had a chance to have it tested so I don't know if it's Sterling or not. Once I do then we'll all know for certain. I'll keep you posted. I've got another interesting find for you which has some silver on it. Let me know what you think. Check out the pictures. Thanks to all. Best regards, Kevin IP: Logged

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