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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 T.W & S?
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 12-16-2001 03:29 PM
  
[19-0144] I won pair of serving spoons at auction today with interesting marks. I don't find them listed in any of my references, but I have a theory of who the maker(s) might be. First, however, I'd like to hear what others think. Any ideas? IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 12-17-2001 09:58 AM
My first guess, with a minimum of research, would be an unrecorded mark for Thomas Warner & Son of Baltimore, the son being Andrew Ellicott Warner. The spread eagle, although not of the usual form, is a common Baltimore device. It looks like the "&S" was an afterthought, so these might be from shortly after Andrew joined his father in business, but before their joint mark was created. How's that sound? IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 12-17-2001 11:00 AM
That was more or less my thought as well, but with a little correction if I may. Thomas and Andrew Ellicott were brothers, sons of Cuthbert Warner. Each in turn had a silversmithing son; the former Joseph P. Warner and the latter Andrew Ellicott, Jr. The brother's partnership, T & AE WARNER lasted from 1805 to 1812, when they both went off to fight in the War of 1812. Thomas lost a leg and worked only sporadically on his return to Baltimore, but served importantly as the first City Assayer from 1814-1823. Now here's the interesting bit. As Assayer, Thomas was forbidden by law to practice as a silversmith, but he continued to advertise as such and was listed in directories as silversmith, watchmaker, and casemaker, as well as Assayer. It is presumed that his son Joseph, born in 1811, was trained by his father; assuming he started at age 10, this would be sometime between 1821 and 1828 (when Thomas died). During that time, Thomas could, just skirting the statute, make up a semi-real partnership with his minor son and legally sell work so marked. This would explain the 'created' look to the mark, with & S in separate punches added to his own mark, together with the older Eagle form of guarantee. The separate "I" mark, following the English tradition, would indicate that the piece was made by an apprentice, ie Joseph, and so make the pieces legit. This, of course, presumes that the work is by Warner in the first place and even then may be a long stretch, but it does seems a possible explanation for an unrecorded partnership and a reconciliation of the dates. Wishful thinking? [This message has been edited by wev (edited 12-17-2001).] IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 12-17-2001 08:04 PM
Interesting theory, but .... ... first of all, any silver made in Baltimore between 1814 and 1830 would have legally been required to bear the city assay marks. All the more so since Thomas Warner was, as you point out, the Assayer. Also, the shape of the spoons does not look much like any I've seen from 1820s Baltimore. Fiddle pattern would be much more likely, and also the bowls of these have an odd, shallow appearance (especially for serving spoons). Early Baltimore silver often bore an eagle mark, true, but this one is unlike the style of others I've seen (usually a apread eagle with arrows, olive branch and shield, or else just an eagle head in profile). I'm afraid I don't have any good theory to offer as an alternative, though. Maybe when the spoons arrive you can get a better sense of them and let us know. It's an interesting riddle. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 01-11-2002 11:20 PM
An udate. The spoons finally arrived and I have been able to inspect them and do a better scan of the mark. They are heavily made and of substantial weight. There is no indication that they are any thing but silver; there is fair bit of wear to the applied drops -- nearly to the bowl -- but no indication of plating. There is no similarity in the tip'd backs to the handle that might indicate a die stamp. Very interesting [This message has been edited by wev (edited 10-30-2004).] IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 01-15-2002 09:18 AM
Hope you've seen the splendid T & A.E. Warner tea tray that's listed at auction at the moment, by the way. IP: Logged |
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DarGray unregistered |
posted 08-13-2002 10:27 PM
I have a beautiful fish set (12 pieces) with the same hallmark- except that my bird looks more like a pelican..... I am not a collector, so am probably out of my depth here. I have been looking for mention of this mark for some time now. I will try to get pictures on if anyone's interested. The set is ornately engraved on both the forks and knives; the handles are curved bone (?), no cracks, no scratches. Thank you. IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 11-26-2002 08:04 PM
Update on this mystery mark: I just came across it at auction tonight, on a covered entree dish that's obviously silverplate, not coin silver. The seller identifies the mark as that of Thomas Wilkinson & Sons of Birmingham, c. 1875.
quote: Is it possible that WEV could have mistaken high-quality English silverplate for coin silver? IP: Logged |
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smfc75 Posts: 122 |
posted 11-27-2002 12:20 AM
You might want to look at Mappin's "EPNS ... Makers' Marks from 1784". It has a drawing of a Thomas Wilkinson & Sons mark, Birmingham, 1875. The "T.W" and the "& S" are in clipped rectangles and match all of the examples shown above. Between the two rectangles there is also a bird and surrounding shield but it is not the same bird or shield shown in the above photos. It does look something like the side view of a pelican, wing (or wings) raised and the shield has five squared projections along a convex top edge. An undocumented mark of Wilkinson & Sons seems to be a reasonable guess. [This message has been edited by smfc75 (edited 11-27-2002).] IP: Logged |
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