posted 04-10-2008 06:57 PM            

I have a silver bowl with this on the side. Should read 'octo octavo'. I have searched it without satisfactory result to find out what it means.

Is it a motto? If so, does anyone know the significance?

Thanks.

posted 04-10-2008 08:21 PM            

Can we see the piece please, it may help. Translation could mean many things depending on the context in which it is used. Perhaps it could refer to a date, like the eighth of October.

Jersey

posted 04-11-2008 12:05 AM            

1. a book size of about 6 × 9 in. (16 × 23 cm), determined by printing on sheets folded to form 8 leaves or 16 pages. Symbol: 8vo, 8°
   
2. a book of this size.
   –adjective 3. in octavo.'

   '1582, printer's word for sheets folded to make eight leaves, from L. in octavo "in the eighth," from octavus "eighth" (see octave). Abbreviation is 8vo.'

posted 04-11-2008 01:06 AM            

I have never heard of silver sold in sets being marked in this way at this late a date, but perhaps some were. In earlier times, personal silver (usually spoons) were often numbered, ostensibly to let the host or his butler know if any pieces were missing (misplaced or else lifted by light-fingered guests or servants).

posted 04-11-2008 08:33 AM            

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With reference to Vathek's query in the general forum, it is over 50 years since I studied any Latin and I was pretty weak at it even then. The inscription seems to translate something like "eight to (or by) the eighth" or "eight eightfold". I can only guess at what that might really mean so I hope there is a better Latinist in the forum or somebody who actually recognizes the phrase!

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To follow up, I don't think this is a novel way of numbering the item. It seems to me more likely to be a (possibly punning) motto where one would need to know the origin in order to appreciate it or perhaps it just refers to some group or club of eight members and was a presentation by or to the eighth member?

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posted 04-11-2008 03:31 PM            

Another possibility is that it is a piece celebrating the publishing of someone's 8th book!

posted 04-11-2008 04:57 PM            

For example, someone with the last name Sinclair would be called "Sinkey."

posted 04-11-2008 07:29 PM            

The bowl is absolutely stunning!

I would please like to see the mark as well?

What are the dimensions?

Also, the knot to me looks more like Solomon's knot as opposed to a Celtic knot, is that possible?

Thank you for your time.

Jersey

posted 04-11-2008 10:44 PM            

This puzzle fascinates me -- and I think the bowl itself is wonderful. On a lark, I tried the UK sites for both Google and Yahoo (a good research trick if you're researching something abroad -- go to the local sites for major search engines). Found a couple UK genealogy sites that list various dating styles in old church records, some of which were in Latin.

To be honest, what I found doesn't correlate exactly. But if you take into account the date, and the Art/Crafts fascination with the Medieval, and the penchant for some educated, monied folk to play at Medievalism, dress up as monks at club fetes, and spout Latin....

posted 04-12-2008 02:31 PM            

This design is frequently used in the designs of ancient synagogues, which may have given rise to the symbol's association with King Solomon. Interlaced designs of this type took much skill to execute and were reportedly a hallmark of the medieval Italian stonemasons known as the Comacines,* who imbued it with mystical meanings, a symbol of eternal motion and the intertwining of space and time.

the Comacines were apparently an early form of Masonry based in Italy so there may be Masonic meaning here.

posted 04-12-2008 07:22 PM            

You got that right, and the beat goes on!

I must admit I love this post, very mind challenging!

Vathek, how did you come upon this bowl?

Jersey

posted 04-13-2008 08:46 AM            

The size is approx. 6.5" across the top and 3.25" high. Too small for punch, but my thought is that it was made for display like a trophy or commemorative item and not for use.

It was purchased at a resale store, not cheap I remember but still very reasonable (all this back in the day when this seemed more likely to happen, which hasn't in a while).

After all the speculation I might speculate that someone had this made up for no particular reason other than they thought it would be interesting. I myself would like to have something similar made up if I could afford it but the inscription would be for Monomantic Syntoraxis.

Please note that Glasgow used script date letters for the series starting in 1897.

posted 04-13-2008 09:09 AM            

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A few more thoughts on the interesting and attractive bowl. I still think the inscription is probably deliberately cryptic, its meaning apparent only to those in the know. I'm afraid I also think some of the suggestions are unlikely. Dates in Latin simply aren't written like this so one would have to assume a deliberate use of nonsense Latin. I rather think a reference to a slim volume would have been rendered as "octo in octavo" as octavo without the preceding "in" is an English abbreviation.

Given the Scottish origin of the bowl I am surprised nobody has tried to make a connection with the best known Scottish dance, the Eightsome Reel, which is danced by four couples, i.e. eight people. It was then and remains a very popular way of prancing around in kilts. A prize for the best exponents? Or a gift to the organizer of a Scottish Ball?

However, Edwardian Britain was not short of folk who perceived an idealized similarity between the British and Roman Empires, were competent in Latin and ready to show off their cleverness so I suspect we shall never know the real meaning unless somebody turns up more hard evidence.

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And a PS on the function. In the UK this size of bowl is often called a rose bowl, i.e. usable to display cut flowers, but I agree it is in essence a pretty piece for display in its own right.

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posted 04-14-2008 02:11 PM            

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SCOTTISH ART NOVEAU BON BON DISH

Vintage rare Scottish silver extremely good quality art nouveau bon-bon dish. Dish is of naturalistic form with boat shaped bowl being supported on 4 stylized pierced arms all has a hand hammered finish synonymous with the art nouveau period signed on underside of base Edward & Sons Glasgow hallmarked silver Glasgow 1904 makers mark for prolific Glasgow makers David and George Edwards, good crisp hammered finish no repairs height 83.8 mm length of bowl 124.2 mm base length 73.5 mm width of bowl 76.2 mm width of base 53.1 mm weight 150 grams.

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posted 04-14-2008 05:59 PM            

Thank you, it's a lovely bowl as well. Too bad I did not see it before.........kidding!

Although I must say I still like yours better.

Apparently they used their name inscribed as well.

Thank you for showing me.

I have several friends going crazy trying to figure out that saying.

Jersey

posted 04-16-2008 08:55 AM            

As has already been said once or twice, you probably would have had to have been there to ever really know what is meant by this inscription.