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tline3open  Rococo

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Author Topic:   Rococo
agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 12-22-2014 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

A Christmas present to myself, but first the bad news before anybody rushes to alert me to it. Attached to the exuberant rococo handle of this sifter is a replacement bowl, simple in style though nicely pierced. I don’t think it looks bad despite the mismatch in styles. I guess the original bowl would have been some sort of extravagantly fluted shell.

So, why am I pleased to have this despite knowing what is wrong with it? Well, I like to be able to show the way in which fashions evolved. This handle gives me an example of a particular rococo style that fed into the later Onslow pattern: cut off the up-turned top of the terminal and you would have a proto-Onslow.

The handle has just two very worn marks: a lion passant that seems to be the pre-1739 version and an illegible maker’s mark. All I can say about the latter is that it appears to have a three pointed crown or a plume of three feathers above the faint remains of a couple of initials. It might even be for George Wickes - the quality and heft of the original piece suggests a leading maker supplying the wealthy and fashionable - but who knows? I am happy to date it to circa 1735 and to regard the bowl as part of its history rather than a reason for treating it just as scrap.

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swarter
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Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 12-22-2014 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is an interesting handle. Someone obviously thought enough of it to save it by replacing the bowl.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 12-23-2014 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A nicely judged comment. My wife felt the piece might be improved if the bowl were given a new and simpler handle while I wonder what I might be tempted to do if I now came across a rococo ladle with a damaged handle but an intact bowl.

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June Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 1343
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 01-01-2015 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for June Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is indeed a beautiful handle. And I think it is very instructive to demonstrate the contrast in styles. Thanks for sharing and Happy New Year.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 07-01-2015 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just added another Rococo piece, this time a hefty soup ladle, London made: 8.6 troy ounces and 13 inches long.


I took a bit of a risk with an absentee bid at an auction when I hadn’t been able to visit and view the ladle. It looked reasonable in the catalogue photographs but the auctioneer’s condition report did refer to a possible repair. Now that I have it in my hand I can see this possible repair, but it is not something that hits you in the eye or that shows up in a photograph. The handle and the bowl were made separately and soldered together. I think the solder may simply have become more evident after some 250 years of use, rather than have needed re-doing. Either way I am happy with the piece. Because of this possible repair, and perhaps because the maker had not been identified, it proved to be far more affordable than these heavy and decorative early items usually are.

The ladle had been catalogued as 1759 but that was a misreading of the gothic date letter and it actually dates from 1769. The maker’s mark was said to be too worn to read. However, a private buyer has more time to study marks than a busy auctioneer and I am confident that the shadowy remains actually read IR for John Romer. It doesn’t take much research to come across a number of Rococo soup tureens made by Romer in the 1760s. This ladle presumably accompanied one such tureen.

It was made later than the one that started this thread, at a time when Old English had largely replaced Hanoverian as the normal pattern for basic flatware. This has influenced the design of the ladle: the stem end now curves down rather than up.

Some of my pleasure in this new acquisition comes from having a bit more Rococo in the collection and some from the business of identifying the marks. It can be more fun than acquiring a pristine piece with documentary marks where there is nothing more to do than gloat over the new possession.

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Polly

Posts: 1971
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 07-01-2015 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wonderful ladle!

I think a downturned handle is a better idea for a ladle than an upturned one--helps stop the ladle from slipping into the soup.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 12-08-2016 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It has been quiet on this Forum for a little while so I thought I might show a couple more Rococo ladles to bridge the gap in dates between the two I have already shared in this thread.


A soup ladle by Philip Roker II, London, 1748. The foliate terminal is similar in style to those on naturalistic teaspoons of the period but the effect is rather different on this large and heavy soup ladle. The engraved crest of a demi eagle displayed out of a mural coronet is used by several families so does not really help to provide a bit of provenance.


A fancy front sauce ladle by WC, London, c.1760. The marks are too closed up and worn to read the date letter. I was tempted to say by William Cripps but there are too many makers around with WC initials for me to be certain. Of its two crests, the top one does not feature in my edition of Fairbairn and the lower, later one is shared by several families so again of no real help as far as provenance is concerned.

I have just been a little irritated by reading yet another bit of expert advice to the effect that one should only collect the best examples one can afford as far as old silver is concerned. That is not my approach. Of course, I like to have some top quality items such as the 1748 soup ladle, but my interest is in charting the changes in fashion. With this in mind, I am quite happy to have some pieces that are tired, repaired or otherwise less than first rate as can be seen from the examples in this thread (and, indeed, in other threads). If I were to become more of a perfectionist, I would have a smaller, less varied collection that would not illustrate the history in the same way. My approach may not make as good an investment, but I don’t collect for profit. Am I being silly?

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 12-09-2016 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't necessarily disagree with that. Although I avoid damaged or repaired pieces typically, I'll occasionally buy a tired piece or dented piece if the wear is consistent with age.

I usually aim for pieces that talk to me and sometimes these dented or tired pieces do just that.

And remember, a lot of us will never sell these pieces anyway, so if you enjoy them that is what is most important!

Great ladle by the way! smile

[This message has been edited by asheland (edited 12-09-2016).]

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11573
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 12-09-2016 12:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We don't really collect but there are exceptions.

Our interests are very diverse in the world of silver. So we can't help when our current focus causes us to explore/purchase and we end up with a divergent mini collection. Once our interest/research has been satisfied, then sometimes we are lucky to sell our explorations/research/"mini collection" for break even or a profit.

Then there are the rescues we never intended to purchase but couldn't let something great go to melt. With the shrinking marketplace our unintended mini collections of rescues is not so mini. And these days, since it is harder to find homes for the rescues, unfortunately we are doing less rescues.

Perhaps our largest homogeneous collection is our reference books and ephemera.

Knowledge is the basis for buying smart. But the Internet has created a lot of noise and often inaccuracies .... resulting in less persons who really know the subject and therefore a shrinking marketplace. Unfortunately new opportunity to collect for profit has been undermined by the Internet noise ... just because something has a high price on the internet doesn't mean it actually sells for that price.

So new opportunists with little interest in silver & the silver arts/history often overpay and are then stuck trying to find someone else to make their same mistake. So there are lots of sellers, with overpriced items and fewer knowledgeable collectors because there is little affordable as an entry to start collecting.

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ahwt

Posts: 2377
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-11-2016 09:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for all your interesting posts. Your ladles really are wonderful and informative.
I also wonder about experts/dealers whose advice steers one away from items that are not perfect. However, the good side of this is that items that are not perfect tend to be a good bit lower in price with the result that I can buy more of the items that interest me.
Another trend that I see in the American silver market is the inclination these days to call silver from St. Louis southern silver. I lived in St. Louis for most of my life and St. Louis is no more southern than the man in the moon is southern.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 12-11-2016).]

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 11-16-2017 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Sorry about the quality of these photos. I hadn’t meant to use them but suddenly found I needed something to test out Scott’s latest success with the photo-hosting site. Anyhow, this is a recently acquired rococo soup ladle by William Turner, London, 1755. The crest is for Clan Fraser of Lovat. It is not really visible in the photo however!

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 11-16-2017).]

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Polly

Posts: 1971
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 11-16-2017 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I love seeing these ladles.

Wouldn't it be amusing to use your rococo for cocoa? --Okay, maybe not.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 11-17-2017 06:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh dear,Polly. You have started me on a new displacement activity. I could use my art nouveau for Bordeaux and my Baroque for Hock (or for coke if you rhyme this with Baroque), and Biedermeier for beer by the fire.

It may take some time to come up with something for neo-classical or mannerist or even art deco. I must make myself stop.

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Polly

Posts: 1971
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 11-17-2017 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You obviously must use your Art Deco for Prosecco.

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June Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 1343
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 11-17-2017 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for June Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good one Polly. It had me stumped.

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