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tlineopen  British / Irish Sterling
tline3open  copper/bronze scale plated.

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Author Topic:   copper/bronze scale plated.
silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 04-04-2009 02:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1831]

This copper/bronze scale I've bought today only have to receive it next week.

Measures are length 36 cm and wide 26,5 cm.
It is (personal taste!) nice decorated and what I can see is the religion about the way people are chosen after their dead. Heaven or the underworld.

When I receive it I can see better if this one was plated or not and if there is any mark to be find on it. The seller told that at the back is a hole. Perhaps the scale was connected at a copper/bronze standard.

My questions about this scale is does anybody recognize this style or know in which period it can be made? Where these scales made resting at a standard. Is there perhaps a photo/picture to be find of a original complete scale with standard.

Is it a imitation of a older silver pattern and reproduced but than plated?

Which country/ies made this kind of scales?

Is it continental?

The relation to the scale can it be used in a church?

A lot of questions but I hope a lot of answers to understand more of this piece.

I send next photo's and if it is needed I can send clearer photo's when I've received the scale this coming week.

Thanks a lot Silverhunter.



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Ulysses Dietz
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Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 04-05-2009 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is hard to judge from the pictures, but I suspect that this was originally plated--if it shows two metals (copper and bronze--is it yellow and pink?)...and it looks to me like a scene from Dante's Divine Comedy, possibly after one of the Gustave Dore's illustrations from the 19th century edition --the Last Judgement, which concurs with your guess.

This sort of piece was very popular in France and England in the 19th century, from the 1867 Paris World's Fair on. It is what I believe was an electrotype--an electrolytically duplicated silver-plated base metal facsimile of a silver original. Various silver companies in Europe would commission these works for the big exhibitions, and then would make electrotype copies for sale. Elkington in england produced a famous "Paradise Lost" shield known as the Milton Shield. This seems to be a small-scale version of the same kind of thing.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 04-05-2009 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ulysses Dietz, thank you so much for your very long and interesting answer responding at my question. Last week I had contact with the seller and like I wrote, I receive this one this comming week. I will check all information you wrote about and now I have got names and be informed to look in the right direction for further research, so you helped me a lot and I'm thankfull for that. When I have received the scale I can make clearer photo's and also from the back side. There must be a hole in the back and I wonder if the basement(if there was?) is broken off. It's also good to know the period, in the seller's advertisement was mentioned the late 18th century, but that wasn't possible for to plate this scale.
Tomorrow I will research with the help of your information and hope to see the origenal shield one day. I hope somebody can send a photo of a origenal pattern which they produced in the late 19th century. It's late in Holland and tomorrow starts a new day. Greetings Silverhunter.

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Ulysses Dietz
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Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 04-05-2009 10:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Here are two images by Gustav Dore, You can see why I thought of him.
Here is the Last Judgement.

When you say scales, do you mean that this is a pan or dish from a weight scale?

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Kimo

Posts: 1652
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 04-06-2009 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree that it looks like it may be an electrotype. If it is, then its age could be anywhere from the 1860s to yesterday. These were most popular in the late 1800s to early 1900s. Electrotypes of recent vintage tend to be more commonly made to be forgeries of more expensive objects since you can get a great deal of detail and an almost exact copy of an original through this inexpensive process.

The way an electrotype is made is you take something soft like clay and press an original object into it leaving an impression. Then you thinly coat that impression with something that conducts electricity such as graphite powder. You are then able to use the electroplating process to build up a thick layer of a metal such as copper on that mold. You remove the sheet of copper that you just made and silver plate it. The result is an almost perfect replica of the original design on the face side. What you do not have is a three dimensional object. If you want a three dimensional object you repeat the electrotype process for the back side of the object than solder the two halves together. You can fill the hollow shape with cement or pitch or something to make it feel solid.

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 04-06-2009 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ulysses Dietz thanks again for your reaction included with Gustav Dore's impressions, my last judgement is that it is certain made in the style of the DISH.

Now I also know the difference between scale and dish. When I look at the photo it is a pattern of a serving tray but nice decorated and that's the reason I have bought it. I wonder if there will be somewhere on this planet the original dish made from silver and marked with silversmith or factory stamp/s?. I had my impression this dish should be plated and the seller agreed when I asked about it.

I have to look for a book I'm not sure but now I'm see the examples made by Gustav Dore a bell is ringing and I think I have some information with other examples standing in.

It sure has and is based with influences of religion, that's for sure!

I've done some home work and send a few examples found after you mentioned some names.

I have opened (this topic) on SMP silver forum twice it's very practical for answer your reaction and the reaction of Kimo.

Easy reading over all the facts.

Turn my face in the direction of Kimo I will thank you also for the interesting information you gave me.

Of course I didn't knew this process of making such a dish of copper or bronze.

But I think seeing the worn out silver rests, the dish can be more from late 19th than early 20th century.But that impression can be stronger when I've received the one this week.

I think this dish is certain 3D and gives a lot of information, for instance the people composed group down under are not able to go back over the damaged bridge to come into the living world again.

I wonder what it will cost to let it plate again. Without new plating it it looks also nice. I will look with material is used (if it is) for to fill the dish to make it feel solid like you wrote.

And finally some photo's as study examples, here they are, beautiful made!
I thank you both very much for sharing your knowledge concerning this dish.



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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 04-10-2009 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've just received the dish today and I want to send some photo's of the backside of the dish. I'm begin to doubt if this one was plated with cleaning the yellow copper.

I couldn't find any silver resting pieces at all even between the lines.

So I think these kind of dishes were also just made of copper. If you see the back side can you recognize the kind of hole Kimo, I hope you can/will answer this question. Here are some last photo's about the dish.




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