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tlineopen  British / Irish Sterling
tline3open  Benjamin Mountigue

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Author Topic:   Benjamin Mountigue
ahwt

Posts: 2377
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-25-2017 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Benjamin Mountigue’s,also known as Benjamin Mordecai, mark is on this nice ladle. The marks are for London December 1,1784 until 1785 although the “I” date mark is not quite that shown in Jackson. I needed another ladle like a hole in the head, but this simple graceful design is always a favorite of mine and the price was right.

Does anyone know the animal on the engraving?





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PhilO

Posts: 166
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 11-25-2017 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PhilO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The armorial is the Lamb and Flag, the badge of, among others, the Knights Hospitallers of St John. It has also been used as a family armorial so a look through Fairbairn's Crests might give a few potential owners' names.

Phil

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ahwt

Posts: 2377
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-25-2017 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, PhilO. I thought it might be a lamb or sheep.
I could see this being used by someone in the woolen industry.

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Polly

Posts: 1971
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 11-25-2017 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Beautiful sharp marks.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 11-26-2017 05:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am probably now stating the obvious but, in case it helps, the origin of the lamb crest is as a religious symbol: the Paschal Lamb or the Lamb of God.

My copy of Fairbairn lists 22 families that use the crest so that would not really help you narrow the history of the ladle without some provenance. If you try to google the crest you may experience the irritation that I suffer because search engines and the sources they search do not seem to understand that crest has a specific meaning and is not the same as a coat of arms.

A very nice ladle, by the way. I think Old English is the ideal pattern for ladles and sometimes wonder why on earth I bother to collect examples of the more fanciful patterns.

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vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 11-26-2017 07:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Given that the lamb seems to have a halo, might this have belonged to a cleric?

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 11-26-2017 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The halo is because it is the Paschal Lamb but does not point to a specifically clerical use. It has even been used as the badge of a regiment in the British army - the Queen's Royal Regiment - probably in honour of Queen Catherine whose crest it was rather than as evidence that God was always on our side.

It tends to be linked with St John so is often taken as the crest or badge of organisations dedicated to St John or families that have at some point in the past had him as their patron saint.

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 11-26-2017).]

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ahwt

Posts: 2377
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-26-2017 12:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The use of a lamb or sheep in the past was a favorite in many areas. Sheep are just about everywhere in Staffordshire figures. My wife collects Staffordshire figures and besides dogs I think sheep are the second most represented.

Brooks Brothers uses a lamb suspended in a ribbon and that symbol goes back to Philip the Good, a 15th century Duke whose knights were notably named–The Order of the Golden Fleece. Apparently Philip made a fortune with his sheep.

Thanks Agphile for the information about crests. I imagine this ladle was owned by someone connected directly or indirectly to the wool industry.

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 11-26-2017 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lovely ladle!
The Kings head mark is the intaglio version used from Dec.1, 1784- May 1786 it was to show that the new duty was paid, as said but was changed to cameo when they made the punch that was used in the fly press that had all the marks.

It in itself has a bit of rarity, which I love, also because of the timing. It is not proved but the king needed money after that disastrous little debacle in the colonies....

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ahwt

Posts: 2377
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-26-2017 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agleopar thank you for the information about the marking of silver with the intaglio design. I did not realize that the duty mark changed as you described.
Intaglio has always been a great word and I note that its usage peaked in the books that Google looks at in 1874.

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Polly

Posts: 1971
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 11-27-2017 09:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I so enjoy being part of a community whose members look up the word /intaglio/ on google ngram.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 11-27-2017 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lovely ladle! I also have a soft spot for nice Old English Pattern pieces whatever they are. And the crest makes the piece in my opinion!

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