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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 Question on imported silver
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| Author | Topic: Question on imported silver |
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Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 02-15-2011 10:18 PM
  
[26-2120] I have a question. When early silversmiths ( pre-1800) were importing so much English silver to satisfy the American market, did they mark the imported wares at all? Most countries seem to have an import mark but I haven't seen this with items imported to the U.S. Would an American maker place his mark on an English piece that he imported for sale? I have an early English sauce boat dated 1766-67 and it has what appears to be a makers mark ( RD) to the inside of the bowl and is driving me crazy trying to figure out why it's there. I haven't seen other English silver with this and wondered if this was a possibility? I can attach pictures if requested. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 02-15-2011 10:45 PM
Pictures are always requested and desired. Many makers/retailers/importers marked foreign goods before sale with their own mark. It was the lucky (or shrewd and well-connected) fellow who could survive on his own output alone. Adding a touch was good business. IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 02-15-2011 10:50 PM
Another point to consider is that sometimes silversmiths re-used out of date or scrap silver to make "new" work. It could then cause some or all of the "old" mark to appear in unexpected places, and wouldn't preclude the item being hallmarked again, as in England it should have been. IP: Logged |
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Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 02-15-2011 11:17 PM
Well I had considered the possibility of this being a pap boat which was turned into a sauce boat and the mark in the bowl is the original mark and the later marks from after the change. But the style seems too early for that. This sauce boat is stylisticly consistent with the marks, in fact there is a picture in "American Silver" by Graham Hood of an American suace boat on page 155 produced by Richard Humphries dated 1770-75 which is very close to mine. That is what made me originally think of the possibility of this being imported and then marked by the American smith. The problem with that is I can find no American Maker of the time period with the initials of RD. I may be wrong on what they are as they are slightly rubbed on the bottom but I have tried every variation I can think of and can't find an English or American maker to match. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4132 |
posted 02-16-2011 01:10 AM
Robert Douglas of New London is in the time period and was a capable maker and has a recorded RD mark (Hammerslough). IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 02-16-2011 01:23 AM
why should a smith import and mark? that is a later thing to do. owners stamp - also likely. pleasec post picture IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 02-16-2011 12:27 PM
quote:
Owner's initials were engraved on their silver - owner's stamps ("house marks") customarily were not used on American silver. Please post pictures of the piece and the marks. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 02-16-2011 04:24 PM
There was a very large amount of continental silver brought into the US by imigrants as portable wealth so this marking could also be a continental one. Also, silver was bought, sold and traded by people all the time so this marking could be one added at some later point in its history. In addition to continental silver, there was a fair trade in silver from other colonies such as the Spanish ones (Mexico, Central America, South America) and also Canada. Silver was money that could be put to practical use until one needed it. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 02-16-2011).] IP: Logged |
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Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 02-16-2011 04:39 PM
Here are the pictures. The mark I'm baffled about is on the inside of the bowl and was difficult to take a photo of. I took a photo to try to show the idea of where it is and you can see it but it's not distinct, so I drew it the best that I could. In the drawing it appears more like a BD but under a loop it is almost definitely an RD. Thanks. IP: Logged |
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Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 02-16-2011 07:30 PM
Hi there. Wow.! Killer piece. Generally, we (the USA) did not stamp our silver on the front. We marked them on the side or the bottom. Marks like this on the inside are usually European. Marc IP: Logged |
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Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 02-16-2011 10:01 PM
Thank you Marc, yes I am familiar with that, but I have no other English pieces with this odd combination of a full set of hallmarks where you would expect and then this rogue makers mark(appears to be) in another area of the piece. I have a number of items with journeymans marks, or retailer marks, or pseudo marks, but nothing like this and thats what I find confusing. I should have made it clear in the photos but the hallmarks are on the outside near the spout, where you would expect them. IP: Logged |
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Roger Nevling Posts: 58 |
posted 02-17-2011 05:06 PM
Swarter, thank you for your earlier post. You mentioned that American makers did stamp articles that they imported. Do you have any examples you could post? Thanks, Roger IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 02-17-2011 06:45 PM
The 1766/7 date is correct for these London marks. As yousay, there is a rubbed maker's mark as well. I detect solder in the bottom of the bowl of the piece which indicates a repair - silversmiths who did repairs, often placed their marks on the piece. I do not have an imported piece with an American reseller's mark added, but there have been many published examples. Many pieces bought in by American smiths for resale (from both foreign and domestic sources) were left unmarked by their original makers; most often the seller added his mark, but there are many unmarked pieces (some in sets alongside marked examples) still to be found today. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 02-17-2011).] IP: Logged |
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