posted 07-01-1999 11:08 PM            

Carissa is the coordinator of the group. From time to time she presents the group with an interesting subject for discussion.

What follows is a selected set of e-mails on the subject of Fakes.

I hope you find this as interesting as I did.

Scott
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Dear Silver Pals,

By now many of us have hopped onto eBay and find ourselves plowing through long listings of silver for sale. Yesterday, I stumbled across a fake piece of Versailles that pushed my blood pressure button. What follows is my exchange of e-mails with the seller. My question to him was, "why would you want a reputation for selling fakes?"

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In a message dated 6/13/99 6:18:30 AM, panda writes:

I hoped that in the [eBay listing] text I was making it clear it was what it was. "Gorham Versailles Made-Up Small Cheese Scoop

Purists will sniff at this almost six-inch-long Versailles cheese scoop. It has been made from a Versailles teaspoon. That's the bad news. The good news is that the figures on the stem's end are sharp and crisp and that the marks on reverse are: "Sterling," "Copyright" and "88." Monogrammed on reverse with "JG."

If you have some suggestions as to how I might amend this to make the situation clearer, I would appreciate them.
j
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Matching@aol.com writes:
My point is, why sell fakes in the first place? Even if they're clearly identified as such.

It encourages production of more fakes, for one thing. If you're a serious collector of ANYTHING, would you want the real thing in your collection or would fakes suffice?

Your mention that "purists will sniff" is a slap at collectors who try to maintain the integrity of their collections despite dealers who refuse to set any standards for themselves. For example, while I was starting my Versailles collection several years ago, three veteran silver dealers in various parts of the country all sold me made-up pieces that they represented were the real thing.

I didn't know better at the time but fortunately the owners of Sterling Source in Sacramento identified them as fakes. I demanded -- and received -- full refunds. But there were no apologies offered by any of the dealers... nothing. I'm afraid they took the fakes and sold them to another unsuspecting collector.

Yes, you clearly identified your item as a fake. But I honestly don't know of a single serious Versailles collector who would buy it -- and I am in contact with other major Versailles collectors in the country. Please give us the real thing. We're willing to pay good money for it. But by offering us fakes, you unwittingly damage your own credibility. Please consider this.
It's not worth it!

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That was my letter to the seller. This also gives me a great opportunity to publicly express my gratitude to Nick and Joanne for helping me ferret out the fakes. I have already thanked them in private, but it means even more to do so in front of their peers.

Carissa
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Here are some of the responses to the above.
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:04:05 EDT

[NOTE: AOL destroyed some of your mail I'd been saving to use in this communique. My apologies to those who are not represented below. Carissa]

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Carissa,
The fake problem is endemic and becoming more popular as unscrupulous or unknowing silversmiths copy the rarer pieces that can be made from common stock.

In Houston, there is a silver worker who makes Patent Olive spoons out of Ice Tea spoons and butter picks (the kind with a narrow spoon and two picks on the side) from teaspoons. He appeared at the HADA show and talked to some dealers proudly about his work which is very well done.

I have difficulty buying twist Butter Picks, Baby Food Pushers and Cheese Scoops because the are so many fakes around. Pierced or slotted table spoons also are mostly made pieces. In addition, knife handles are attached to Nut Crackers, Duck Scissors and any other hollow handled rarity that can be made up. Silver Magazine should do an article with pictures exposing the fraud.

Whiting used code numbers on their serving pieces which help determine authenticity and on their two handled pieces, marked one with sterling and the other with their trademark. (My Adam Nut Cracker is marked in this fashion)

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Hi Carrissa,

Enjoyed your exchange on the fakes. This is an issue on which I have mixed feelings.

First of all, I wonder why anybody who can make them up doesn't just repair flatware and change knife blades?

Secondly, I long ago despaired of teaching general line dealers about silver, now I just look and either buy or don't buy.

Third, sometimes I run into made up items that strike me as sensible: can openers, ice cream scoops, melon ballers. These are not being sold as part of the collection, they are just a use for knife handles with bad blades. But then, for me at least a third of my customers have been people who did not collect silver: they cooked and needed things for specific uses.

Trying to correct people on fakes is probably as frustrating as yelling DO NOT PUT RUBBER BANDS ON SILVER over and over. Been there, done that.

Actually I felt really accomplished when I managed to convince someone not to remove monograms with a tire iron, he would hit forks with the sharp end, sometimes cutting the end off. I personally think we should concentrate on shutting up the anti monogram people, wanting Victorian silver without monograms is like wanting Victorian beds that take a king size mattress. Good luck, remember Sisyphus,

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Thanks for doing this. We appreciate your words. We don't sell fakes intentionally, but know that there are more and more out there. Too bad the business has to get cheapened by these people who know nothing and will do anything for a buck. Hopefully, the real collectors will squawk and put these fakes out of business.

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Fakes are not limited to sterling either. A "dealer" hihosilver is selling made-up pieces in many plate patterns; most notable hh candle snuffers and ice cream forks.

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Shoot the sellers, drawn and quartered.

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Well, I am a little puzzled by all this Fakes, non Fakes, outrage. If you take old silver knives handles and take off the bad blades and Miracle transform it into an ice cream scoop, or a can opener, or whatever ...I think it is not fake it is just recycling....I do not think the British establishment scream fakes when the US makers in the 19th Century start "copying" their patterns... Or the French screaming fakes when the US silversmiths gave all French names to their creations.

Fake is really when someone copy a product and try to sell it for the right stuff. Now if people who go to Flea Market or wherever buy a $5.00 "Channel, Gucci, or Louis Vuitton bag" and think they get a bargain of the real think the problem is not with the "Faker" but with the "Fakee".......Same old thing with the sterling silver.

Till to scream in outrage, just let's try to educated our clients, and let the one who wants their bargain buy the fake piece. Good thing always will be copy, does not really mean it is a "fake", in time some fake can become better than the real thing ...It is just not worth the scream and the waist of time....

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I will not intentionally have these in MY store. Even I have been fooled once or twice that I know of.

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We read the various messages attached to this email and wanted to provide our input on this issue.

We agree that fakes and those dealers who knowingly sell fakes damage dealers in general. We have had many customers show us silver they have bought from other dealers that is obviously a fake. It puts us in the very delicate position of being honest with the customer and informing them the piece is not right. It is an embarrassment to the trade as a whole to be put in this position and puts us in the position of having to defend both our personal integrity as well as the integrity of our merchandise.

While we agree that fakes such as made up cheese scoops, ice cream forks and baked potato forks damage our reputation, we feel that the issues of the removal of monograms, the selling of special run pieces (Whiting Lily) and the selling of recast pieces are far more prevalent in the marketplace.

If we as a group feel that we can address these issues only one at a time, then I would like to see this group address the issue of pieces with monograms that have been removed, regardless of how professional the job is.

This practice is one of the most difficult to detect, particularly when buying on-line. I believe that we can use a common language that everybody will understand to address the practice of removing monograms. That language is money. Customers need to understand the dramatic loss of value suffered when a monogram is removed from a piece of silver. We encourage our customers to make up a relative before they remove a monogram from a piece of silver. We have actually refused to sell some significant pieces to customers because they made it known to us that they were going to have the monogram removed.

Fakes, special run pieces, recast pieces and pieces with monograms removed are all issues that we need to be concerned about. However, our vote goes to dealing with the issue of the removal of monograms since this is the issue that most impacts our business.

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Thank you for including my letter among your responses. It seems that I am not as bothered by this as the others, and I think I know why. By and large, I see what are being called fakes as a sensible and cleaver use of items that have problems. For example, the cheese scoops made out of Versailles teaspoons seem like a clever use for something that has the melt pot in its future.

Face it, collectors tend to have more than enough teaspoons and aren't buying. We run businesses not museums. And by converting dead merchandise to useable items we expand both our business potential and promote the use of silver in everyday life. For far too long we have allowed people to see silver as something out of the dim past suitable only for collectors and not as something that can be a part of everyday life. Also the original Versailles cheese scoop is too large to be put into a modern crock of cheese, it will tip it over. Plus the system now is to put out several different cheeses and for this people need a variety of cheese scoops. So I say more power to the convertors.

As for having this ended by collectors squawking, well that's what collectors do. Birds fly, fish swim, collectors squawk. Collectors bitch, they moan, they carry on, they tell you what things cost before you were born, and then more often than not they don't buy. I shall never forget the collector who insisted on counting the number of grapes in each cluster on the LaVigne and
told me she only collected the 6 grape not the 7 grape ones. On the other hand, the people who buy made up cheese scoops look at them, realize how they would fit into their lives and spend money.

As you can imagine I have burned out on the collector, preferring the filling out grandma's silver crowd and the cook and serve beautiful food people.

OK, what is the aspiring dealer supposed to do with the knives with bad blades? Sit with them forever, remembering these are not objets d'art but inventory? Why not convert them to something useable, like the duck tongs. You can do this with all sorts of monogrammed pieces that have no other market.

May I close with a question? I have seen dealers with crumb knives, things collectors tend to have because nobody need more than one, lable them enchilada servers. Nothing has been done to the item, they are just marketed to fit into modern life. Is this less offensive than the tsp into cheese scoop, more offensive or the same. We are not running museums and our customers do not live in museums. They wish to adapt things of the past to modern life and if we can help them, why not.

posted 07-06-1999 02:07 PM            

After I explained why I did not want the piece, one of his subsequent notes to me included this:

quote:

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"Concerning the scoops, for what it's worth, I have several in various patterns (including Chantilly - one with modern marks and one with the traditional Gorham marks) and they are all styled similarly. Judging by the craftsmanship, I sincerely believe them to be authentic as it would seem to me that someone would otherwise have gone thru a lot of trouble for not much gain. (I have been duped into buying "fake" sterling flatware from silverhouse@earthlink.net on ebay, so I have some reference material for comparison!!)"

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Some time later I received another note from the seller:

quote:

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"I'm terribly sorry for not writing back promptly. It's a long story, but I was rather preoccupied. I don't know if you noticed, but a couple weeks ago I listed a bunch more silver on ebay: relish scoops, etc. I received a couple other emails similar to yours. That is, people were concerned that the pieces were modified. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Finally, I called my source on this silver and they readily admitted the pieces were modified. In my previous auction, I had just sold some other modified pieces (again, without knowing they were modified at the time), so I emailed all my bidders offering full refunds or (if they still wanted the piece) partial refunds along with an explaination that the pieces were modified. Then, I had to cancel bids and auctions for my just-listed pieces and write several dozen emails explaining to those folks why I canceled their bids. Surprisingly, some of those bidders still wanted the modified pieces despite my explaining over and over what they were. And even though that was a couple weeks ago since that fiasco started, I'm still getting email from people wanting to know if I have more available, etc so I've been taking the opportunity to educate those bidders about the modified pieces as I've noticed I'm not the only one who has mis-represented modified pieces.

"Thanks again for helping educate me. Between you and other eagled-eyed ebayer, I now understand quite a bit about the modified pieces now and feel I came very close to embarassing myself in a major way on ebay. I definitely don't want to deceive anybody."

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Clearly there is a market for these pieces. And there are also sellers who have a conscience and care about their reputation.

We, too share the frustration when obviously made up pieces are sold, particularly when they are not acknowledged as such. But it is a war we will never win. We can only share our knowledge and experience with others, and from time to time give words of caution to strangers (and hope a vendor doesn't assault us). As we New Yorkers used to hear Sy Syms say: 'An educated consumer is the best customer.'
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posted 07-06-1999 05:01 PM            

As to monograms; I really am against removal of monograms. But, then, a monogram without history is meaningless. But, then, an 18th-century anonymous monogram is still evidence of 18th-century life. And so on. Recently The Newark Museum was given a piece dated 1885, and it was clear that the original monogram below the date had been removed. However, I didn't mind at all, because the family who removed the monogram in the 1930s, replaced it with their own monogram (it was a 25th anniversary gift). Thus the "bad" replaced monogram serves as a document of the piece's history (which is a very interesting one for us); and the original 1885 date was preserved to help us date the object more precisely. So not every issue is clear. Finally, one of the above writers had a very good point; curators look for one thing, collectors look for another, sometimes related. Amateurs, or those who pick up the stray piece of silver now and then, are concerned with still other issues. As long as vendors are honest and candid, there's nothing to be upset about (except the destruction of an important object to create a fake--which seems unlikely).