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Author Topic:   The Shiebler - Redlich Connection
Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 02-03-2002 10:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Ludwig, Redlich & Co., later Redlich & Co., was formed in 1890 by Adolph Ludwig, former designer at Shiebler, and A. Alec Redlich, a diamond salesman. Ludwig left the company in 1895.

Today, Redlich silver is little known or appreciated, largely because A.) The trademark is easily confused with that used by Mauser, the Merrill Shops, etc., and B.) most of the Redlich silver on the market seems to have been designed in the post-1895 period, and it just isn't all that interesting.

Illustrated here is a piece from the early period, showing the continuity of design that Ludwig brought from Shiebler to his new company. This spoon is from the "RUSTICANA" line, a multi-motif, not-full-line pattern advertised by Ludwig, Redlich & Co. in 1891. This advertisement is mentioned in Katherine Morrison McClinton's book "Collecting American 19th Century Silver". Aside from a set of twelve fancy coffee spoons, each with a different handle, the line included berry, ice cream, jelly, bonbon and olive spoons, as well as salad and sardine sets. I believe this piece to be the berry spoon.

A recent article in Silver Magazine (Sept/Oct 2001) by Bill Hood, Charles Curb and John Olson, Part Two of "Dining With Bugs", illustrates two other pieces in the Rusticana line, matched with a very similar Shiebler piece. One bears the Redlich mark, while another has an unascribed fleur-de-lis mark. I might suggest that the fleur-de-lis mark was a mark for Ludwig, Redlich & Co., as opposed to Redlich & Co.'s Chimera mark.

Although the pieces illustrated in the article are fancier than mine, they do show a similarity of construction. The bowls are formed separately and attached to the twisted handle components. My piece has no further appliques, while the the pieces in the article have applied leaves and insects.

The handle on my piece matches up fairly well, but not precisely, with one of the twelve coffee spoons illustrated in McClinton's book, while the ones in the article do not at all. Still, the bugs in the article match one of the ones in the book.

This points out the fact that fancy pieces like this rarely came out exactly the same twice. The bench workers seem to have had some discretion in assembling items, so elements could be combined in a variety of ways. A further example of this is illustared in the Dr. Hood's article in the Jan/Feb 2002 issue of Silver, regarding his purchase of a Shiebler GRASS pattern sardine fork. The one he bought was supected of being a fake because it did not exactly match another "identical" fork. It has become clear that fancy pieces of this sort were assembled by hand, and that the assemblers were given leeway to produce items as they saw fit. In light of this, it might be wiser to suspect a "perfect match", rather than a piece that varies significantly from the "norm"!

Anyway, please forgive my long windedness. Do keep an eye out for Redlich silver though; it is a sleeper!

Brent

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Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 11-01-2002 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is one of the coffee spoons. Note the earlier Ludwig, Redlich & Co. mark, which is similar to the early mark of William B. Kerr.

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Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 11-01-2002 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also, a salad serving set, which also has the fleur-de-lis mark.


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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 11-02-2002 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Richard requested that I add this to this post.

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Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 11-09-2002 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for confirming my suppostion about the fleur-de-lis mark.

It is neat to see the salad set from this Rusticana line. I don't know about you, but I would love to see the sardine set and the sugar tongs!

Brent

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1732
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 11-24-2002 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are two more pieces of this kind of Redlich silver, a salt spoon and a tea caddy spoon. I have one other, nicer salt spoon of which I'll get pictures posted soon.

Salt spoon:

Tea caddy spoon:

p.s. Cheryl & Richard, that's one nice salad set.

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1732
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 11-25-2002 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Richard Kurtzman
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Posts: 748
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iconnumber posted 12-12-2005 04:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is another piece, a bell, in a similar style that apparently was made by the Ludwig, Redlich Co. It measures a little over 4" high and is marked with the fleur-de-lis, STERLING, and 413. I have shown this bell to a number of knowledgeable silver people and none of them has made the correct attribution. The most common guess was Linker followed by Kerr.

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1732
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 12-20-2005 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is another piece, a leaf and bug motif paper clip measuring 2 1/4" long. It is marked with the fleur-de-lis and number 255.

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Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 02-24-2006 06:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some of these Redlich pieces can be enchanting. Here is a butter pic with the under sea motif, about 6 inches long:


A graceful spoon, nearly a foot long:

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Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 02-24-2006 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another with the fleur-de-lys, around ten inches:

Here is a heavier piece, with little sweet grapes, grapevine tendrils and a leaf. Also a foot long:

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 03-17-2006 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The item shown below is stylistically very similar to many of the Redlich items displayed above, but the mark is decidedly not that of Redlich (though similar). In fact, as brought up in this thread (Unknown "Clubs"- shape mark on sterling), I have been unable to figure out what firm made this at all! [It is JB & SM Knowles]

The object:

...and its mark:

I am tempted to say that this item dates from roughly the same period as the Redlich Rusticana pieces, or perhaps as much as a decade earlier (my immediate guess would have been ca. 1880).

In reply to hello's remarks below, I have re-sized this image... Please note that, as this is the only image I have available, the above is simply a zoomed-in and re-sized rendition of the earlier image. As a result, it will appear to be low-resolution.

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hello

Posts: 200
Registered: Jun 2005

iconnumber posted 03-19-2006 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hello     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The mark is very difficult to see. Any way you could zoom it in a bit?

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hello

Posts: 200
Registered: Jun 2005

iconnumber posted 03-23-2006 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hello     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmm, still difficult to tell even what the mark represents. Do you know what it is? From there it will be a bit easier to reference. Some marks books have a section for non-word marks.

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 03-23-2006 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
still difficult to tell even what the mark represents... Some marks books have a section for non-word marks.

Nope, what you see is what you get. That's about as crisp and detailed a view as I could get with a loupe.

I really don't know what it's supposed to be... A hermit crab? A neglected glove? Who's to know?

Rainwater's illustrated index of unlettered marks is the first place I looked. No luck. Maybe it's a poor strike?

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1732
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 08-28-2006 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
See Unknown "Clubs"- shape mark on sterling.

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1732
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 09-08-2006 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a Shiebler example of this style, surely designed by Ludwig, which recently sold on eBay. Same style of stem, hand-engraved veins, etc. as my insect clip. This appears not to be a hinged paper clip, as the insect clip, but rather a bookmark.



And here is a Redlich button hook in this style.


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bascall

Posts: 1604
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 05-13-2009 04:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scotts postings yesterday (12 May 2009) concerning Shiebler - advertising and Ludwig and Redlich (Redlich ad in JC&HR 8/5/1891) prompted me to have a look at this old posting which was well worth the effort.

And just for the fun of it, here is a bit about the retailers Hyman, Berg & Co whose name appears in one of the images in this posting and who were no "small potatoes" in their day in Chicago: In 1868 Morris H Berg entered the Chicago firm of retail jewelers (Charles) Wendell & (Sigmund) Hyman which ultimately became Hyman, Berg & Co. (Morris's mother's maiden name was Hyman). Hyman, Berg & Co were in business from what is believed to be 1882 until 1930. However, according to what is written in the "The book of Chicagoans" By John W. Leonard, Albert Nelson Marquis(found online), a better year for the firm ending might be 1910. The 1882 date is reasonable only because Morris H Berg would have been about twenty-nine years of age then, but there is nothing that I have found so far that totally convinces me of that year.

In the 1890's the principals of the company were Harry S and Edward Hyman (Sigmunds sons) and Morris H Berg. The book of Chicagoans makes the point that in 1910 the two jewelry firms Hyman & Co and Berg & Co went into business.

It is interesting to see how many items there are online that are described as having been made by Hyman, Berg & Co. I believe they were major retailers who like other prestigious and or marketing savvy retailers had manufacturers put private labels on their goods which may cause some of the confusion.

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bascall

Posts: 1604
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 05-14-2009 09:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's a bit about another retailer in this thread. From the 1870 U S Federal Census for Cleveland, Ohio, Louis Brunner was listed as a jeweler, and from the 1880 U S Federal Census for Cleveland, Ohio, Louis and brother Arnold were proprieters of a jewelry store.

In 1881 their business appeared in the Cleveland City Directory at 255 Superior; they were manufacturing jewelers, retailers, and wholesalers. The Brunner Bros, wholesale jewelers, were listed at 53 Euclid in the 1902 Cleveland Business Directory.

Arnold H Brunner is listed as a jeweler in the 1910 U S Federal Census for Cleveland, Ohio. A sister named Sophia is listed in the same census as a jewelry store saleswoman.

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wessex96

Posts: 47
Registered: Feb 2009

iconnumber posted 11-09-2013 11:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wessex96     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Further to Paul's post above, here is another button hook, this one is number 662. However, this hook is stamped 'GORHAM MFG. CO.'. I have come across a couple of Ludwig, Redlich & Co items marked in this way. What is this Gorham connection? - do you think Gorham would have manufactured these products for Ludwig, Redlich - or merely acted as a retailer for some of their products?

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Richard Kurtzman
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iconnumber posted 11-09-2013 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gorham is the retailer.
In addition to their own wares Gorham sometimes sold other makers items at their store in NYC.

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wessex96

Posts: 47
Registered: Feb 2009

iconnumber posted 11-10-2013 03:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wessex96     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Richard. I was not sure about this, I would have thought that Gorham's own range of products would have been large enough!
Ian

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Polly

Posts: 1557
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 01-27-2016 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sharing mine--here are 7 demitasse spoons and a serving spoon (berry spoon?).

Six of the demitasse spoons have matte, gilded bowls (most of the gilding is worn away). One of them, which I bought separately, has a smooth bowl with no gilding. (It's the one with the two oval/pointed leaves on the end.) And I just bought the berry spoon in an online auction--apologies if I beat any of you in the bidding! (The seller described the marks and wrote, "I am not familiar with these marks but you silver experts will know exactly what it is." I was hoping he'd be wrong, but the bidding got a bit lively at the end--I'm guessing at least one other bidder had read this thread.)

Berry spoon marks:

Demitasse marks:

A closer look at the demitasse handles:

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Polly

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Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 01-27-2016 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now that I compare my demitasse spoons to the ones in the ad, I see that the 6 I bought together (the ones with the gilded bowls) all appear in the ad, and the one I found separately (with the smooth, ungilded bowl back and the two pointed oval leaves) doesn't.

Also, maybe the spoon I'm calling a berry spoon is really a bonbon spoon? Anyone want to guess?

[This message has been edited by Polly (edited 01-27-2016).]

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asheland

Posts: 647
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 01-28-2016 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Polly, awesome silver as usual! smile
Nice additions...

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Polly

Posts: 1557
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 01-28-2016 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, ashlande!

Here's a Shiebler shoe horn that looks like it might have been designed by the same person, doesn't it?

Also, I was so excited about my new spoon that I took photos in the last tiny bit of afternoon light; here it is in better light:

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seaduck

Posts: 311
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 01-28-2016 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fabulous find! They are all lovely.

And y'know what's interesting? If you said that they had been made by a contemporary smith, I might believe you. Especially the berry/bonbon spoon.....I'd definitely believe you!

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 02-02-2016 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Awesome pieces!
I like the beetle! smile

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Polly

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iconnumber posted 02-10-2016 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
One more, a tea caddy spoon:

Back, showing marks, with one of the demitasse spoons for size:

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Polly

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iconnumber posted 02-10-2016 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
(Note that this spoon was also retailed by Hyman, Berg, like one Paul posts and Bascall discusses.)

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 02-11-2016 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very nice. smile

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ahwt

Posts: 1751
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 02-11-2016 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great postings. There should be some wonderful sugar tongs out there waiting for a hopeful buyer.

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Polly

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iconnumber posted 05-20-2016 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A couple more Redlich Rusticana pieces. I think these might be a berry spoon and a nut scoop?

Back, showing the chimera mark:

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Polly

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iconnumber posted 05-20-2016 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
(The berry spoon is 9 3/4" long and the nut scoop is 4 1/2".)

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 05-20-2016 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Awesome!

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Polly

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iconnumber posted 05-20-2016 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you!

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Polly

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Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 02-17-2017 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Adding my recent additions:

-A Ludwig, Redlich & Co sugar sifter or tea strainer
-Another Ludwig, Redlich & Co demitasse spoon
-An OMG SO ADORABLE!!! Shiebler salt dish with salt spoon


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Polly

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iconnumber posted 02-17-2017 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Isn't it the CUTEST??? SO ADORABLE!! Widdle widdle sawt spoon, I could just EAT YOU UP!!!

This was one of my Finds--the seller didn't recognize the mark and just thought it was a cute vintage salt dish and spoon.

Finds like that are getting rarer in this pattern--I blame this thread. (The strainer/sifter and the new demitasse spoon were also finds in the sense that the sellers didn't know much about them or recognize the marks, they just recognized them as nice pieces of silver.)

[This message has been edited by Polly (edited 02-17-2017).]

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Polly

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iconnumber posted 02-17-2017 05:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A closer look at the marks:

Sifter/strainer:

Salt dish & spoon:

Demitasse:

The demitasse also has a Brunner Bros retail mark that I can post if anyone's interested.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 05-25-2017 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
THE JEWELERS’ CIRCULAR AND HOROLOGICAL REVIEW
Aug. 10, 1892
pg 4 & 7
quote:

One year and seven months ago the firm of Ludwig, Red1ich & Co. was organized and a small office and factory opened at 247 Centre St., New York, where, with a force of eight men, the entire business of the concern was transacted. The members of the firm were well known in trade, both having been identified with it for many years. Adolph Ludwig had for nine years previous been an expert designer of silverware for Geo. W. Shiebler, now the Geo. W. Shiebler Co., and his products had commanded admiration wherever shown. A. Alec. Redlich, his partner, had spent the greater portion of his life in the diamond business, and had an extended acquaintance in the retail trade. A few months after the firm started, an office was opened at 45 Maiden Lane, where the goods were shown. Last May, the rapidly increasing business necessitated larger show rooms, | and the office now occupied by the firm in 1 Silversmiths’ Hall, Union Square, New York, was taken and fitted in an attractive manner. A month later the factory was moved from Centre St. to 351 and 353 Jay St., Brooklyn, where 6,250 square feet of space is now occupied by the machinery of the concern, and in the busy season too hands are employed.

The trade mark of the firm, —a ferocious appearing swimming lion— was recently adopted and will hereafter be seen on all their goods. Among the products that the firm has introduced with much success during its short existence is the Rusticana line of spoons, made to represent various flowers, the handles being the branches and twigs, and the bowls the leaves. The ornamentation's of the tableware of the house consists principally of applied work and is exceedingly artistic. Dishes of repouss6 work in exclusive designs and the Florentine line of mirrors are among the attractive samples now being shown by the firm.


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Polly

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iconnumber posted 05-26-2017 01:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The building currently at 247 Centre St. looks as though it could well be the same one where the Ludwig, Redlich, & Co "factory and office" opened in 1890:

[This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 05-26-2017).]

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 05-26-2017 11:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good try but this building open in 1900.
quote:
247 Centre St
Little Italy
New York, NY, 10013

Built in 1900 this 30,718 sq.ft. building is 59% Office Space, 16% Retail, 7% Storage, 19% Other and contains 0 residential units and 19 non-residential units.



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Polly

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iconnumber posted 05-26-2017 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Drat. It looked so plausible!

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