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Author Topic:   Gorham spoon
tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 10-09-2005 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-2342]

I just bought this Gorham spoon marked with a capital "D" in a circle for 1871. Have I correctly identified it, and does anyone know the name of the pattern. I know it is a fiddle back spoon. I know the photo of the mark is not clear, but it is a lion, an anchor, and ornate "G".

Thanks,
Tom


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Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 10-09-2005 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there Tom,

Pattern name is "TIPT" and it is listed as being introduced under this name by Gorham in 1832 (according to "Sterling Flatware", by Tere Hagan). There are a number of patterns that were not pattented, but produced by every silver company. I am pretty sure that this was one of them.

As to the date letter, I do not recall that Gorham used a date letter on any of their cutlery (flatware)... just the hollowate.

This should help s little.

Marc

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 10-09-2005 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc,

From 1868-1884, Gorham used letters A-Q on everything. They switched to symbols until 1933, when date marks were discontinued. In 1941, year marks were reintroduced for holloware only. Thanks for the pattern id.

Tom

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dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tom,

Could you please reference your source for the information about Gorham using date codes on flatware pieces? Must admit, after handling hundreds of Gorham pieces, believe a date code on flatware to be unusual.

There's been some previous discussion of these marks on Gorham pieces: Weight Symbols

Cheryl ;o)

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Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Once again Tom,

Sorry, but they did not use date letters on flatware to my knowledge. Otherwise, I would have customers requesting the 'M' and 'N' date letters on the FOUNTAINBLEU pattern (intro date 1880) flatware they purchase from me. We date the gorham flatware by how it is marked on the back. From the oldest to the newest on the Gorham STERLING flatware, it all say "STERLING",. If it says 'PAT APP FOR' (patent applied for), next to the "lion, anchor, G" (LAG) that is the earliest mark.. the dies are fresh.. Next,if the LAG has a patent date next to it, that usually means it was made within 20 years or so of the pattern introduction..Third in the order is the LAG..
Fourth, it says GORHAM.

Now the later patterns in the 20th century, start out saying GORHAM, but in general that is how (with a few exceptions like engraved dates) dealers tell how old a piece of Gorham flatweare is.

Remember.. What is,.. isn't necessecerely what is written.

Marc

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Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tom,

Concerning your photos,... They would be a little clearer if you you used a lamp, and not your flash. Silver is tough to photograph under the best of conditions. If you use an auto-focus camera, give it time to focus. And preview your pictures before posting them. If I am going to spend time helping you, you should spend the time to take and post better photos.

Happy to help with the photos, still.. email me so we don't tie up Scott's web site.

Marc

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 01:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, now I am rather confused. I hope I am not violating guidelines by telling you there is a date letter chart for Gorham on Online Encylopedia of Silver (http://www.925-1000.com/Gorham_Date_Code.html). I realize my photo is not clear, and I will try Marc's suggestion, but the "D" is quite clear.
As, I said I usually collect silver from across the pond, so I don't have much background in this area.

Tom

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Kayvee

Posts: 204
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kayvee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Gorham date chart that you found online is standard. As others have pointed out, the chart refers to hollowware only. Nothing in that chart as posted could lead one to deduce that the date codes are applied to flatware. Furthermore, the D date letter when it appears on hollowware is not in a circle as the one on your spoon appears to be. Therefore the D on your spoon is one of those mystery marks that sometimes turn up on Gorham flatware, or could be the mark of the retailer. Respectfully suggest that you make a small and very reasonable investment in the reference by Rainwater as a basic text for silverphiles. The recent questions about makers of your new acquisitions could have been found easily in Rainwater. Even though American silver is out of your collecting area, the fact that the U.S. has been the world's largest producer of silver for over a century means that all collectors will run into American silver to identify from time to time.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the D is a script, which I can't tell from the photo, it might indicate a Durgin spoon sold by Gorham. Or the other way around. Gorham took over Durgin early in the 20th century, and there are some pieces that carry both marks. I have seen this in Fairfax.

Tipt is a traditional pattern, made by almost everyone.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps I should say something about double marks. They are rare but they do exist. While here we concentrate on art and design, it is useful to remember that Gorham, like the other makers, was a business.

Part of being a business, was having a network of retailers who would sell the product. It appears that very many of them had an exclusive arrangement with one company. Gorham looks to have been one of the premier marketers of its day. Gorham was one of the earliest nationally advertised brand names.

So, when Gorham acquired the patterns of another retailer, which would include the existing produced items, there was a problem. Many of their retailers would only sell things marked Gorham. So, until the existing stocks marked with the previous maker's mark were exhausted, Gorham would simply add its own mark. Then the pieces could flow smoothly through the retail system.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 04:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks to everyone. The chart did not explain that the marks are only for holloware. Kayvee, I did not even know about Rainwater, since as I said I usually concentrate on British and continental. I have a copy of Wyler (not a great book), and fortunately, our library has Jackson. Tardy is higher on my list of desires.

As for my spoon, the shape of Ghoram mark corresponds to that used for 1863-90, which seemed to confirm my apparently mistaken notion that the "D" was a date letter for 1871. I will try to post some better photos.

Tom

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Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 10-10-2005 10:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tom,

You have it right.. the list does not say.. 'Holloware only. Amazon books should have the Dorothy Rainwater book. But you live in England if I am not mistaken?.. Lots of good booksellers there. Should be able to pick up a copy of Rainwater (maybe an older edition), on the cheap.

later.

Marc

Marc

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 10-19-2005 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I finally got around to taking some better pictures of the marks in hopes one of you can help me narrow down when it was made.

The source I have indicates that this style of marks with the lion, anchor, and G not set in a punch or crest belongs to the last quarter of the 19th c. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks,
Tom

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hello

Posts: 200
Registered: Jun 2005

iconnumber posted 10-25-2005 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hello     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have never seen this mark on a piece after 1900

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Richard Kurtzman
Moderator

Posts: 759
Registered: Aug 2000

iconnumber posted 02-21-2009 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just came across this thread while browsing and I would like to correct a widely held belief that Gorham did not use date marks on flatware. They did - not often, perhaps rarely, but they did.
(I'm not sure, but this may have been addressed on yet another thread.)
In any event I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 02-22-2009 09:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From nautilusjv posted 02-21-2009 11:20 PM in the (Dating Gorham flatware)
quote:
In the thread "Gorham spoon" ...

Marc details this relative dating in his post. I was wondering what if a Gorham flatware piece of a known pattern is just marked sterling with the LAG, is there a relative way to date the piece?

Thanks for any info on this subject.


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dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 02-22-2009 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Over the years, don't believe I've seen even a dozen Gorham flatware pieces with date codes, seems to be quite unusual. The one piece that I have is a Delhi demitasse with the 1885 boar-head, and every demitasse I've seen in that pattern is so marked, though none of the other pieces are. Oddly, the marks on these spoons are always in the same place, and appear to have been part of the die (if I recall correctly, they are not marked "sterling"). I'm not home at the moment, but do have pics in my computer and can post later, if desired.

~Cheryl

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