posted 11-11-2007 03:54 AM            

Brand new to this forum, I can’t find much at all about this Gorham set of “Lincoln silver” anywhere on the internet. A five piece 800 coin silver set by Gorham dating circa 1859 to 1863. Any ideas?

And here is a description from another friend:

quote:

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IMPORTANT GORHAM c1859 MRS. ABRAHAM LINCOLN COIN SILVER TEA AND COFFEE SERVICE; GORHAM'S FAMOUS PATTERN NUMBER "30", ILLUSTRATED IN CARPENTER'S "GORHAM SILVER"; MATCHING SET ON DISPLAY IN THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION; ELABORATE SATIN CHASED LEAF AND VINE EMBELLISHED HANDLES AND SPOUTS; COVERED CREAM PITCHER; EXTENSIVE BEADED TRIM; 123 OUNCES

We are exceptionally pleased, near elated, to offer this important mid 19th century Gorham coin silver five piece coffee and tea service.

An identical set was presented to Mrs. Abraham Lincoln. While she was First Lady of the United States. That set, which bears the Todd (her maiden name) coat of arms, is displayed in the Smithsonian Institution (See Carpenter page 44).

Each piece masterfully crafted in raised ovoid form.
Sharply tapering to thick, stepped, beaded circular base.
Most unique, banded and bead shoulder. Here, single beads placed at considerable distance from one another.
Raised beaded upper rim.
Richly ornamented handles and spout.
Subtle, intentional design variations among the pieces. Gives the set even more visual and collector appeal.

For example, the waste bowl with curled vine framed, spread satin chased leaf handles. In contrast, the sugar bowl displays similar, though more elaborate handles. Here the leaves are extended and softly curving downward. Terminating in "scroll and bar". Joined to elegant, panel engraved anthemion joins.

Tea and coffee pots with long, sweeping upward spouts. Both chased leaf cap and leaf "surround", curled backward at the tip. Followed by thick, beaded "collar". On quick glance, the design appears as a "barking dog"...or else I'm just listing too much silver and need a vacation.
Remainder of the spout with rough, pebble chased side panels and ruffled leaf mount.
The cream pitcher with covered spout. Quite rare. Equally as ornate, with chased leaf and vine cap and raised "clover" mount below.

Tall, high arched leaf and collar cap and embellished handles. Stylized "arrow head" lower join.
High domed, recessed circular covers. Well fit. Topped with unique bell cap, button and bead form finials. On raised urn pedestal base.

Monogrammed Gothic "CMT".

This rare, c1859 Mrs. Abraham Lincoln Gorham coin silver cream pitcher is 8 inches tall, 5 1/2 handle to spout 15 1/2 ounces.
Waste bowl 6 inches diameter, 5 1/2 tall, 16 1/2 ounces.
The sugar 9 1/2 inches tall, 7 diameter and 25 ounces. Yes, 25 ounces.
The teapot 9 3/4 inches tall, 9 1/2 handle to spout, 33 ounces.
The coffee pot is 10 1/4 inches tall, 9 1/4 handle to spout and weighs 33 ounces.
The entire set crafted of exceptionally thick, heavy guage coin silver. The set weighs 123 ounces. One of the heaviest, most substantial five piece mid 19th century American coin sets we have ever owned.

Each of the five pieces in the set is in excellent condition. Appears little, if ever used. Rich, lustreous silver patina throughout. The extensive leaf and vine embellished spouts and handles retain their original crisp, vibrant hand chased detail. Handles secure. Covers fit snugly. Few tiny pin head size indents. And couple of very shallow pinky size impressions. None of these at all distracting.

Each of the five pieces fully hallmarked under base as shown. Including Gorham's exceptionally early, and famous pattern number "30", "Gorham & Co.", trademark lion, anchor and Gothic "G", and "COIN". This precise hallmark is illustrated in Carpenter page 229, and indicates c1859 crafting.

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posted 11-11-2007 09:55 AM            

Existing SSF members are reluctant to respond until you first do some sharing about yourself and your interests in silver and in particular the items posted. It would be best if you would start by reading Please Read Before You Post at the start of this page and then add the requested information to your posting

SSF is just a small group of people who enjoy discussing silver and it is good form to introduce yourself to the group. Please let us know a little more about your general interest in silver and your interest in learning more about your items.

Are they a part of your personal silver collection or are you researching in hopes of possibly selling it?

Please also post some nice clear photos of the silvers markings. Please don't post bare urls to photos. Please properly sized the images and post using the SSF image tags ( [img] [/img]). Be sure to follow the directions about How to Post Photos. Everything you need to know is explained in this link.

posted 11-13-2007 08:12 PM            

The description you posted sounds like a sales pitch, and what it misses (as do so many such descriptions on Ebay and elsewhere)is that the Lincoln set is very different from yours, except that it is the same form. The Lincoln set includes a coffee pot and a tea urn, as well as a tray (the rarest feature in solid silver in the 19th century generally).

Gorham, like all silversmiths of the time, offered a standard line of shapes, of which this was a popular example. Beyond that the sets or individual pieces could be customized according to the taste and pocketbook of the purchaser. Your set was probably the plainest version of the form, ornamented only with the monogram and no extra chasing or engraving beyond what the form itself demanded. The chasing on the Lincoln service would most likely have increased its purchase cost by as much as 75% over a handsome but plain version such as yours.

I hate to shatter the "Road Show" enthusiasm, but I think you need to understand that your service is not made more valuable by the fact that Mary Lincoln was given one of the same form. It is quite nifty to be able to point to the set at the Smithsonian (or in Carpenter's famous book) and say "look, that's the same form as mine," but they are really two entirely different things. Gorham probably made scores of these tea and coffee sets for well-to-do Americans all over the country in the 1850s and 60s. By the way, I am sure it could not be "800"--coin is 900, and the 800 standard was not (to my knowledge) used in this country.

posted 11-13-2007 08:31 PM            

Many thanks for your valuable information. In my research, I did find this also about this Gorham set, pattern #30 which all makes sense I guess.

As for rarity, according to author and Silver Magazine contributing editor Samuel J. Hough, who organized the Gorham Archives and has been researching them professionally for twenty years, "Tea Sets and some other standard hollowware items such as pitchers were assigned numbers in a decimal sequence, so the earliest design of a tea set was assigned the number ten, the second twenty, and so forth. During the early years, from 1857 to about 1870, variations within those numbers were available to customers, so for example the #30 design tea set, first made in 1857 and a great success (called the 'Mary Todd Lincoln set' in Carpenter, p. 55, illustrated on p. 56-57), could be had in chased and engraved variants numbered 31, 32, 33, 34, and 35."

Considering that this set was popular, does that mean that such sets are relatively easy to find in the market? I've been searching the internet as best I can (slow ISP speeds here in Bali) and have not been able to find any set like it. Do you have any thoughts on that?

So, in America, if coin silver was 900 in purity as opposed to 800 in purity, then American coin silver is very close to sterling or 925 in purity? Is that correct?

Once again, many thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Your help is much appreciated.

posted 11-13-2007 08:48 PM            

My mailbox is filling with warnings from members that you are doing business research and trying get info to improve your sale. Since you have side stepped my earlier post.... here it is again.

quote:

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Welcome to the forum.

Existing SSF members are reluctant to respond until you first do some sharing about yourself and your interests in silver and in particular the items posted. It would be best if you would start by reading Please Read Before You Post at the start of this page and then add the requested information to your posting

SSF is just a small group of people who enjoy discussing silver and it is good form to introduce yourself to the group. Please let us know a little more about your general interest in silver and your interest in learning more about your items.

Are they a part of your personal silver collection or are you researching in hopes of possibly selling it?

Please also post some nice clear photos of the silvers markings. Please don't post bare urls to photos. Please properly sized the images and post using the SSF image tags ( [img] [/img]). Be sure to follow the directions about How to Post Photos. Everything you need to know is explained in this link.

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posted 11-13-2007 09:01 PM            

Do the actual production records for Gorham exist somewhere for research? In other words, is it possible to learn exactly how many sets like mine, (or any others for that matter) were made in any given year? And, should this sort of thing, American mid 19th century coin silver, be considered as mass produced or was more individual artistic production involved? I guess I’ll have to Google and find myself a copy of Carpenter’s book! Many thanks again!

As for my interest in early silver, where I live in Bali, and as a Balinese, we have our own long tradition of silver making, but in general most items were made for temple use, as with offering trays, kendi for holy water and such. Silver for personal use, beyond handles for kris or jewelry is very rare. I am often consulted by visiting westerners on aspects of Balinese culture and art, both visual and applied, so I do a fair amount of entertaining of westerners in my compound here in Ubud. As my education and interest is primarily with antique documentations of our culture, I simply was more attracted to older silver as opposed to what I can find shopping in Jakarta or Singapore. I was told I should explain that so my motives for posting on this forum are better understood.

Many thanks again and kind regards, Nyoman

Mr. Martin, my family does have a very well known gallery in Ubud, but I assure you that we do not sell western silver in any forms and my own interests here are purely from a collector’s or personal use interest.

posted 11-13-2007 10:57 PM            

I would love to see examples of silver made in Bali. I might also add that two of our favorite waiters at one of our local restaurants just returned to Bali. Bali is their homeland and I am happy for them, but do miss their charm and interesting stories.

posted 11-14-2007 04:24 AM            

Having being away from Bali for a few years at various times in my past, I can understand the longing those waiters felt to return home, and the joy they experienced once their feet hit Balinese soil, and their head breathed Balinese air. One of my closest cousins is now in Chicago on a full fellowship for his doctorate degree in ethnomusicology from the University of Illinois. He writes me daily complaining how cold he is, and all I can say is the truth...“buy more coats and scarves Wayan, as the worst is yet to come.” He appreciates his opportunity very, very much, and he will never give up, even if he comes home as a frozen snow man! It is hard to be away from home, most especially when you are away from home as far as you could possibly be while still here on planet earth. But, he is young, strong, intellectual, exuberant, and unwilling to abdicate the gifts presented to him by the powers that all Balinese embrace.

I’m happy to read that these Balinese who you became able to know touched you and left you with a positive impression of our culture and life. Here in Bali, the Balinese love to share their culture and way of life with anyone who wishes to learn. But, for those few truly brave men and woman who venture out of Bali, and present themselves as envoys to other cultures, well, all I can say is that for them, I have the greatest respect and admiration.

It may surprise you, but even at the public school education level, American history is taught here, and comprehensively I might add. For Americans who don’t remember the cold war, or the Vietnam War, it was Indonesia that was America’s most staunch anti-communist ally in all of Asia, or SE Asia during that time. In earlier years, when it came time for us to be independent, right after the closing of WWII, it was America who supported us the most in the newly formed United Nations. We never seem to forget our past too much, and that might be because for our way of life, time is seemingly unmeasured, and bonds are honored and respected.

Two of the three greatest American Presidents...those who defined democracy, or defended it, are easy for me...Washington, and Lincoln. I am rusty on who should be the third, so help me out. I would guess that to be FDR, but please tell me if I am wrong.

Back to this coffee/tea service, I freely admit that its association to such a great defender of democracy, Abraham Lincoln, played an important role in my decision to buy this particular service as opposed to others available. Yes, I understand that Mary Todd Lincoln, who was likely raised in a similar humble environment as myself, did not personally chose, or pick out this service. None the less, there it was, in the White House, and perhaps used daily all the while her husband (and her) struggled to keep the fracturing, and still young democracy of the US together and intact. No doubt, every time I serve coffee or tea from this service to my guests, western or Asian, I will always have this thought in mind.

Various cultures have various unique responses to the artistic creations of otherwise disparate cultures. I personally think that is normal and to be expected. When language fails us as a venue of communication, it is always our artistic endeavors that create the initial bonds.

I sound like I am lecturing, and I apologize. Once again, my many humble thanks to all who have taken your time to respond. Kind regards, Nyoman

posted 11-14-2007 02:05 PM            

I think what put most people off was the first impression that was made in the way you were describing your set. Your post is worded like a high pressure sales pitch rather than a simple request to talk with the good people on the forum about an interesting example of Gorham silver. This forum is not like most other forums - it is simply a place where people who enjoy looking at, discussing, and learning about old silver get together. Think of it as being invited into Scott and June's home for afternoon tea and crumpets and the topic of discussion is old silver. Things like not introducing yourself, appearing to be doing pre-sales research or seeking appraisals, and similar activities are not good form and they tend to put us off.

You sound as if you have some interesting silver in your personal collection and I am sure you must have some wonderful knowledge and expertise on silver from your part of the world that you can share with people here on the forum.

I hope we can start over and that you will be a regular visitor and contributor to the forum if discussing silver for the interest in silver is something you would find interesting. The people here really are very nice and helpful and include some of the most knowledgable experts in the world.

I think your set is very nice and I would like to see a closeup of the old Gorham markings if you could please post a photo or two.

As to your question as to whether it is mass produced, the answer is yes it was - but the way things were 'mass produced' in the 19th century is not the same as the 20th or 21st centuries. There was more handfinishing at that point. Also, for more costly things like silver coffee sets mass production does not mean that millions of them were made.

As to whether this set can be considered as having a direct link to the set that was given to Mrs. Lincoln the answer is not really - other than it is of the same general pattern. As AHWT described, giving gifts to a President and his wife has been a long-time practice in the US by companies that seek free advertising by being able to announce to the public that the President or his wife have the same thing. It is a practice still done today. What a company gives to a President or his wife is typically a highly ornate and embellished version of what the company is mass marketing to the public and most of the time the objects are never used in the White House since so many companies give so many things.

posted 11-14-2007 06:51 PM            

Chicago is a great city to do antiquing for silver and most other items. I hope your cousin had the time and the inclination to explore that city, if not for antiques then for all the other exciting things that it has to offer. He or she will have many interesting and exciting stories to take home to remember and to tell to others.

Your cousin may also enjoy the movie Song Catchers as it tells the story of finding old English and Scottish ballads in the hills of the Appalachians that had been preserved for generations.

Enjoy telling your stories of your beautiful tea set.

posted 11-14-2007 07:28 PM            

I will try to post a photo of the Gorham markings on this set. I’ve read the instructions about how to do that, so I should be able to do it without a problem. I can tell you that it is identical to the marking illustrated on page 229 of Carpenter’s book, or so I was told, as I don’t have that book yet.

Many thanks for your explanation about the process of Presidential gifts. That makes a lot of sense. I am still wondering though if there are any actual production records for the Gorham firm. Does anyone know if such records exist?

Yes, I can post some Balinese silver pieces here. I will work on that and get some pieces posted as I can. I will only show pieces that were made for local use and not as commercial export commodity.

Ahwt, also many thanks to you for your additional insight. For most Indonesians it would be FDR who is the most popular as he led the war against Japan which occupied most of Indonesia from early in 1942 until the end of WWII. That was a very dark time for all the world. Bali was very important for the Japanese as a major source of rice for their troops. Most of our history from that time is not known and our elders are very reluctant to speak of any dark times as it brings back demons in their mind which then need to be purified by a priest and cast out again. For us, it is most important to maintain balance and harmony so we have a tendency to try to forget about bad things from the past. Even within myself I sometimes struggle with that aspect of my culture and the fear of by not remembering history, risking its repetition.

Many thanks again, and once again my humble apologies for the confusion I caused. Kind regards from Ubud where it is a beautiful Thursday morning with sunny sky and a nice breeze.

posted 11-14-2007 09:18 PM            

I will keep this image up on this site for future recall. That makes sense as well and possibly contributes to the informative aspect of this forum.

I’m am going to go and correct my errors on the George III coffee pot posting I made as well. I hope these additional photos are helpful, and my most pressing question is, how often has anyone come across this pattern number 30 set?

Many thanks again, and kind regards, Nyoman

posted 11-14-2007 09:46 PM            

It was just a simple confusion that is all too easy to do on the internet where people are not able to meet each other as in real life. I read a study done at the University of California that says communication is 7 percent by the words used, 38 percent by voice quality, and 55 percent by nonverbal communication such as facial expression, hand gestures, and body language. It is a wonder that we are able to communicate at all on the internet where we have only words.

I do look forward to learning from you about Indonesian silver, and other silver from your part of the world. I have visited Jarkarta only a few times in my life and was never fortunate enough to have had the chance to see much locally made silver there or in other parts of the country.

posted 11-14-2007 11:36 PM            

For gender indications, these same names start with either Ni (female, and pronounced “knee”) or I (pronounced “ee”) for male. Our third name is given, usually by a close family member at our birth. For me, that is Eri, and so my complete name is Ni (woman, girl) Nyoman (third born) Eri (given me by my uncle). It gets far more confusing for higher caste names, but I don’t think this is the forum to discuss that. I understand the purpose and interest in this forum, which is silver, and I do want to follow the rules and not make mistakes, or upset anyone.

Please take no embarrassment with this confusion, and I assuredly will not either. There is already too much of that, for which I am responsible and remain very sorry.

What I need now is to lean how to post photographs here. Computer technology and access to the internet...the world for sure, is relatively new here in Bali. I am the only Balinese in my entire village with at home internet access, and that is because of my husband. For me personally, it offers an incredible and amazing connection to information, people, places...where to stop? For the West, and other more developed parts of Asia, (Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore) this is normal and every day taken as for granted. For me, and for certain most all other Balinese, this is all new, and also, very exciting.

Very much I appreciate the patience shown to me here, and also the understanding that I am very new to forums, and regarding silver, I am a new born baby. Aside from my own cultural silver made items, I have no knowledge of what western silver is all about, how it was made, why it was made, or anything excepting what I can find on the internet. I only know that I find much of it to be artistic, pleasing to my eye, and indicative of other noble cultures. I am also very well aware that as precious metal, it has a world wide ready market, so there is always a bottom that is more than zero.

My husband gives me his advice, but he also insists that I be independent and learn in my own way, and on my own. He will never let me fall too far, he is always there for me, and I know I can always rely on him. For me, that is luck. It is my kharma.

Pak Martin, or Mr. Steve, who here we would actually call Pak Steve (our preferring the first name) is as I surmise, the “boss.” He is the “forum master.” It is up to him how things go for me on this forum. My intentions are to continue to purchase both American and English antique silver as I really enjoy this artistic expression and with each piece there is a history, or a story. For me, I would love to learn what collectors that are predominantly western have to say about particular pieces that I may well have an entirely different outlook.

I would love to learn much more about the “why” of the appeal of one piece over another. I understand much of this is subjective, beauty being in the eyes of the beholder, but there are reasons why certain pieces transcend nationalistic tastes and take on the appeal of global tastes. For me, I would love to explore these aspects too, but I fully understand that I am new, “unproven” and a “rookie.” I have no problem accepting that self admitted reality. But, what I really look forward to on this forum is good advice...good and heart felt advise, without pretense or hidden agenda that the regular experts here would share with a beginning collector, as that is what I am. Kind regards, Nyoman

posted 11-15-2007 08:30 AM            

It appears that your selected (not recommended) photo service provider villagephotos.com servers are not serving up the photos. At lest not yesterday nor this morning. The server is pingable and the routing can be successfully traced. Pinging and tracing is the first step to technically figure out why we can't see your photos. With some reading between the lines we can speculate that since the villagephotos.com servers are online and reachable then it is most likely a software issue which villagephotos.com has to first resolve.

Our advice is for you to use Photobucket. Once your photos are accessible we will be able to better provide you with more suggestions.

posted 11-18-2007 06:55 PM            

Many thanks again for taking the time from your busy work to respond. I thought that the #30 design tea and coffee set was first introduced by Gorham in the year 1857 and that it was only the third set design in the sequence of the company’s history. I also read that it wasn’t until 1 May of 1868 that Gorham adopted the English sterling standard of .925%.

The famous Mary Todd Lincoln set was made of coin silver, so my confusion is that a Presidential set would be associated with middle class consumers of silver. American coin silver, (900/1,000) only had 2.8% less silver than sterling, (925/1,000), which seems almost insignificant.

I still continue to be frustrated in finding any other set like my set. I have spent hours researching, pouring over auction records, and writing letters. I received a reply from one person who wrote,

“This is a lovely set, but it is not rare, the mark on yours was used as late as 1865. Another Gorham & Company set identical to yours sold back in January at the Phoebus Auction Gallery for $X. So what you paid is very close to the low retail value for this set. That being said, a lot depends on the demand in your area for such an item.”
-edited by me to remove dollar figure.

I was able to find that set, and it was indeed sold as lot #24 in the January 1, 2007 sale as mentioned by this person. However, that set is not an identical set to mine, rather, it is the same exact set! The very same Gothic three letter monogram, “C M T” is present and clearly visible on the enlarged photo of one of the pots from the auctioneer’s web site.

So, I am back to where I started. It is difficult for me to imagine that if this Gorham set was so popular and therefore not rare, surely I would be able to find another identical example of this set somewhere, or at least I would think so.

There are a great number of experts on this forum with many years of experience and I am grateful to be able to participate on this forum. With this vast experience in my mind, I can only think to ask has anyone ever seen another set identical to our set? Or, could it be possible that the opinions I keep hearing that this set is not rare or not uncommon is more based on a perception derived from Carpenter’s book, where he maintains that this set was popular? I don’t know, I’m just speculating here.

For certain, I do not believe that my set is unique, but it is becoming increasingly evident to me that significant numbers of other examples of my set are not floating around out there in dealer’s inventories, nor have they been frequently sold by auction houses.

My intention is to continue to research this set only for my own education, and the pure enjoyment of doing research. I’m thinking that my next step will be to write to various US museums with good American decorative arts collections and see what I may find that way.

Mr. Dietz, my hopes are that you might have some excellent advice about this idea.

My husband was chuckling as he read my draft for this post and told me, “darling, tell them you’re actually from Missouri and that might help. It’s called the “show me” state."

posted 11-21-2007 05:07 AM            

As this string continues on without a simple request to find just one other set identical to my set, what other conclusion should I logically embrace aside from that dealer?

posted 11-21-2007 06:08 AM            

"There are a great number of experts on this forum with many years of experience and I am grateful to be able to participate on this forum. With this vast experience in my mind, I can only think to ask has anyone ever seen another set identical to my set? Or, could it be possible that the opinions I keep hearing that this set is not rare or not uncommon is more based on a perception derived from Carpenter's book, where he maintains that this set was popular? I don't know, I'm just speculating here."

I'm sorry, but it seems clear to me that if indeed this set is common, or not rare, then it is only obvious that one just like it would be relatively easy to refer to. Wouldn't you think the same thing?

posted 11-21-2007 10:51 AM            

Then add in the silver market of the 1980s, in which teasets in particular fell prey to being sold off as scrap -- large, heavy, and for most people seldom used, they were an easy source of a good chunk of money. They were always susceptible to scrapping, but when the Hunt brothers drove the market crazy I believe many more were destroyed.

posted 11-21-2007 01:28 PM            

Your set, by its nature, may be a good deal harder to suss out. It was not a made-to-order set; it was a stock design that could be bought complete or by the piece and apparently stayed in production for years. For a long time after that, it would not have appealed, quite frankly, to a collector -- again, it was a standard item of standard quality in a style that had fallen from fashion. As FWG points out, time may have taken its tole and such sets have been scattered -- I have seen a variety of odd pieces from this series over the years -- or scrapped altogether. Rarity of this nature does not denote importance, rather the opposite. Then again, there is an equally good chance that any number of these sets are sitting, proudly displayed in quiet anonymity, on the sideboard of a descendant. Short of going door to door, you'll never know.

All of which, of course, has nothing at all to do with the aesthetic appeal of the set in your eyes. That is purely a matter of personal taste; speaking for myself, I wouldn't give it a second glance.

posted 11-21-2007 08:09 PM            

As someone who looks at and enjoys this sort of stuff generally, my impression is that it's a neat, complete (did it ever have a tray - one would suspect so) - and fine condition set. It's also apparent that to readily replace it would be a big ask.

So even allowing for a bit of "over egging of the pudding" by the vendor I'd say to the owner "It's fine, enjoy it".

posted 11-21-2007 09:56 PM            

I understand that we are not to discuss values and prices here on this forum, but I wonder what most of you think about current market values for a precious metal like silver and the effect that market has on antique silver. I hope that it is permissible to discuss that topic, if only in theoretical terms.

It’s quite alright wev that you wouldn’t give this set a “second glance.” To be honest, it was the simplicity of design and restraint of elaboration that attracted me the most to this set. Our own silver here in Bali tends to be very elaborate, so this set is for me a testament to how beautiful an object can be when viewed mainly as form and not decoration.

Adelapt, many thanks for your encouraging words. I have no idea if it ever had a silver tray, but I can see why this would be expected. We used it for the first time two nights ago to serve coffee to overnight guests from Australia, and we set it on a very old inlaid teak tray from Madura. The contrast of the silver on the dark wood patina of the tray was very pleasing and we received a lot of compliments. I suppose the lyrics to an old song, “you’ve got to please yourself” are most appropriate here, and my husband and I are indeed very pleased with this set.

Once again, my humble thanks to all of you who took the time to share your views on this topic. It’s almost ironic that I write that whilst my husband has our Thanksgiving turkey in the oven. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you, and trust me, you needn’t be an American to enjoy this wonderful holiday.

posted 11-21-2007 10:21 PM            

So pleased to have you on board. Can't wait for more info from you to expand my limited knowledge.

Buy what you love. That's why there are so many different collectors of period, style etc. I have gone from simplistic to ornate to aesthetic.....whatever moves me for the day, & pleases my heart.

Gas, Copper, Gold, Oil, Meat, Dairy etc. have risen over the past year.......why not silver. I Don't like it financially speaking, but if you want it you have to pay the piper if you can afford it, (whoever he/she) is.

Your husband seems to be a very wise man......as we say here "He's a keeper"!

My best to you & your family on this most wonderful of days......to give thanks to just having them around.

My turkey will be in the oven early tomorrow.....I look foward to next year when our family (hopefully) will welcome a new addition to the table, with special silver to feed him/her with.

Stay safe & enjoy the day!
Jersey

posted 11-21-2007 11:08 PM            

quote:

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That is purely a matter of personal taste; speaking for myself, I wouldn't give it a second glance.

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posted 11-28-2007 02:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Nyoman:
. . . Am I right that back when those brothers, the Hunts (from Texas?) tried to control the silver market, the bullion price per troy ounce got up to around $50 or so? . . .

I understand that we are not to discuss values and prices here on this forum, but I wonder what most of you think about current market values for a precious metal like silver and the effect that market has on antique silver. . . .

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Bunker Hunt was a Texas oil billionaire who manipulated the price of silver through buying huge amounts of silver futures contracts, then suddenly demanding actual delivery of the silver they represented. Of course there was not enough raw silver in the marketplace to fill all of those futures contracts so the price climbed rapidly and peaked in January, 1980 at a bit over $50 an ounce. The U.S. government then stepped in and changed the rules of how the futures markets worked and instantly Mr. Hunt's attempt to corner the silver market fell apart and the price of silver dropped like a rock and bottomed out in the early 1990s at around $3.60 an ounce. When the price of silver was climbing to such record heights, some people - not all - started to sell some of their silverware as scrap metal to dealers since it became worth more as raw silver than as a collectable. Some of these things were melted down, but many of them were not. Most scrap silver dealers had arrangements with collectors and antique silver dealers for those experts to look through the things that were sold as scrap and these antiques dealers and collectors would pay the scrap dealers up to double the scrap metal price for the nicer or rarer objects. While some rare and beautiful objects were melted down in those days, I do not agree that all that many rare and beautiful silver objects were actually destroyed - the common ones and the damaged ones, yes, but not that many of the good ones.

Except for that one historical moment, the price of silver has not been very high and I tend to think of it more as a semi-precious metal rather than a precious metal. To my thinking precious metals are ones more along the lines of gold and platinum. I believe that the value of objects made of silver is not so much the metal content, but rather their artistic qualities since the majority of smiths over the centuries have used silver for their better quality but relatively affordable works.

As for the effect of the price of silver on the antique silver market I think that the connection is there but it is somewhat indirect and not entirely in sync. For example, with the increase in silver bullion prices in recent years, there seems to be a move by some people to buy very common flatware patterns or hard to sell holloware objects (tea and coffee sets are the hardest kinds of holloware to sell) for their going prices when those going prices are less than the scrap value of the silver. They then sell these things to scrap silver dealers for a profit and the objects are melted into ingots and sold on the raw silver market. My point is that the price of silver these days has now gone beyond what buyers are willing to pay for common or less desireable old silver. The prices of antiques made of silver and of silver bullion are not tightly tied. To the extent there is a link, it tends to be at the bottom end where the silver bullion and the price of the antique silver object approach unity - but even there it is not a lock step relationship.

posted 01-26-2008 09:40 AM            

A set sold recently on an online auction by a dealer in New Jersey USA as featured on that Big Online Auction Site. I'll forego noting the price except to say it was substantial. Because I'm interested in mid 19th century classical silver I've been downloading the pictures off that site for some time, assigning file numbers starting with the date so that the entire folder is in chronological order. Here's the picture of the set similar to yours:

According to Margaret Klapther in Official White House China: 1789 to the Present, Mary Lincoln's table setting expenditures during her husband's presidency were so lavish as to raise questions of fraud surrounding her purchase of a French china service in "Solferino" purple and gold. I'd have to consider her Gorham tea set as top of the line.

Lastly, the covered cream pitcher in your set may be for hot milk. I've seen other sets from this period with similar covered pitchers. This may represent a carryover from French cafe au lait services.