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Author Topic:   Varieties of decorative silver banding
argentum1

Posts: 602
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iconnumber posted 02-19-2007 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

This is a new band to me. So, the question is: How many types of scenic banding are there? Is there a reference which includes verbal or photographic/line drawings of various types of bands used on items? I have asked a number of fellow collectors but to no avail. With the vast knowledge base here maybe someone would have an answer. Thanks for any help.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-19-2007 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

These are better photos plus it shows the banding in its entirety.

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FredZ

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iconnumber posted 02-19-2007 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not aware of any documentation of the decorative moulding found on silver. I believe I can see where the band is joined with solder in the second image. These moldings were most likely sold by the inch by a manufacturer with a rolling mill that had this and other designs engraved into one of the rolls. This is rather elaborate and it would have been expensive to have the roller carved. It would be great to see other images of for comparison.

Fred

[This message has been edited by FredZ (edited 02-19-2007).]

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FWG

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iconnumber posted 02-19-2007 03:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, to the best of my knowledge no one has done a comprehensive survey of these rolled bands. I've seen occasionally a comparison between two or three pieces to make an argument about manufacture, typically for an unmarked piece by comparing it to marked examples, but a comprehensive photo archive would be an incredibly useful tool.

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-19-2007 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oddly enough, I was thinking about a similar thing yesterday (sounds like an obvious master's thesis in the decorative arts - I would think someone might have done one that was never published). I was musing about something that might be done on the Forum, in the form of an illustrated glossary of milled bands, providing there are examples enough among the members to be meaningful. A list of users of particular patterns could be compiled from illustations in books and catalogs, but we would need original photogaphs of the patterns.

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FWG

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iconnumber posted 02-19-2007 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A glossary on the Forum would be ideal, since it would be both easily accessible and (relatively) easy to update. Probably would be best to formulate some guidelines for image size to make things as comparable as possible, but that should be feasible....

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 02-19-2007 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It would be my pleasure to facilitate this. Please let me know what you need.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 02-19-2007 09:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think one would need a close up of the milled work, a photo of the makers or retailers mark and a photo of the object it was on. Great idea.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-20-2007 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott
Thank you for your offer. Now for a few questions 1) what file size do you recommend 2) what is the maximum pixel size. The reason I ask is that I have played with the different sizes. For the best quality detail I have found 1200 pixels to be the low end. I am using a Canon 10D set to its next to the smallest file size. This gives me reasonably good detail. That takes me well beyond the stated 640 pixel size. The 640 pixel size still has good detail but would require the viewer to enlarge the image to really appreciate the details. Any suggestions.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 02-20-2007 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Files size is best determined by the target display device. For example, on screen (browser/internet) or printer or both.

Lets first consider on screen. Accept for now that the maximum image width we want on screen is 640 pixels wide. Most computer screens will only display at 72 DPI (a few do 96+ DPI). So viewing an image at 1200 DPI makes for a larger file size but on your screen the image will only be seen at a resolution of 72 DPI. The extra pixels are not used or displayed but they still have to be downloaded before the image will show up on your screen.

Take your picture at the highest resolution as your camera will allow. Your camera will take 1200 DPI resolution image but at what pixel image width? You can crop your image to 1200 DPI X 640 pixels wide Lets call this Image A. If you take Image A and then resample it to 72 DPI x 640 pixels wide (of course save using a different file name). Lets call this Image B. Then Image A’s file size will be larger (longer to download) than Image B. But both will look the same on a computer screen.

Edit and crop your images at the highest resolution you can work with. But posting those high resolution images even at 640 pixels wide is a waste of download time/bandwidth since they will only display on screen at 72 DPI. Once you have edited your high resolution image and have it looking the way you want, then resample the image to fit the target display device. For display in a browser on a computer via the Internet, 72 DPI is the default resolution for the majority of users. And for the Silver Salon Forums the maximum image width is 640 pixels wide.

File compression is another topic best saved for later.

Images for printing is a more complex discussion. Printing images involves many more variables including the type of printer, the printer’s settings, drivers, etc. Since I think we are talking about this being on-line I will skip the discussion about images for printing.

My suggestion is to take/edit high resolution images but only post images at a maximum of 72 DPI X 640 pixels wide.

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-20-2007 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As it seems there is some level of interest in proceeding, I have placed a suggestion in the moderator's forum; we should have a proceedure shortly.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 02-20-2007 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would love to see the object that argentum1's lovely band is on. A very nice one to start with.
Photobucket has a preset option of saving as 640x480. Is this the one to use? If one gets much larger than 640 the picture goes off the screen and is difficult to view.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 02-20-2007).]

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-20-2007 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
640X480 is the largest you would want to use. Argentum's images above are 640 wide. Remember that even if you rotate a 640X480 image (turning your camera to fill the frame witha vertical object), it will be only 480 wide, but the 640 height will fill the browser frame, so you wouldn't want it any larger.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-20-2007 09:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ahwt
I will post photos in the AM

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-21-2007 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Bought this as a set just recently. Probably paid too much but I really, really liked the set especially the banding.

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FWG

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iconnumber posted 02-21-2007 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And there appear to be at least two different rolled bands there -- leading to further possbilities for tying together different pieces....

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-21-2007 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can see why you were attracted to it. Are any of the pieces in the set marked? If so, by whom? Can you add a closeup of the narrow band?

We will be starting the glossary as a new thread in a day or two, but feel free to continue the discussion of Argentum1's set in this one (we will add at least one of the pictures of the bands to the glossary with a link to this thread to see the others).

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-21-2007 10:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

This is the first piece purchased with a scenic rolled band. The handle is missing but that did not bother me all that much. After all I am not nearly as old as the cup is and I am starting to fall apart. I saw a cup about 25 years ago with the scenic banding and that starting me looking. These are the only pieces I have found over those 25 years.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-21-2007 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

This is the band for the teaset. The maker is W.B.Heyer of New York and the maker for the cup is B&J of New York (Boyce & Jones).

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Dale

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Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 02-21-2007 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Excellent idea! There are loads of quite interesting bands out their. The ones in silverplate appear on pieces by a variety of makers.

Question. There is an old Tiffany china pattern with a band filled with items very much like this one. Any possible connection?

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-21-2007 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These silversmiths pre-date Tiffany. The practice of copying other makers designs was a common practice. I do not think there were copyright/trademark/designs patents at this time; however, one of the attorney menbers would be better at addressing that issue.

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doc

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iconnumber posted 02-22-2007 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not to get too off track, but federal copyright and patent law has been around since 1790.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 02-22-2007 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
James Madison and credited with including Article III, Section 8 - the Patent and Copyright Clause - in the US Constitution, providing the basis for IP in the basic US constitutional system.

This provision provides:
The Congress shall have power to promote the progress of science and the useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.
George Washington signed into law the first patent act on April 10, 1790; however until 1842 the only patents granted were utility patents.

ANNUAL REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONER OF PATENTS FOR 1841 stated in Part:
"The justice and expediency of securing the exclusive benefit of new and original designs for articles of manufacture, both in the fine and useful arts, to the authors and proprietors thereof, for a limited time, are also respectfully presented for consideration.

Other nations have granted this privilege, and it has afforded mutual satisfaction alike to the public and to individual applicants. Many who visit the Patent Office learn with astonishment that no protection is given in this country to this class of persons. Competition among manufacturers for the latest patterns prompts to the highest efforts to secure improvements, and calls out the inventive genius of our citizens. Such patterns are immediately pirated, at home and abroad. A pattern introduced at Lowell, for instance, with however great labor or cost, may be taken to England in twelve or fourteen days, and copied and returned in twenty days more. If protection is given to designers, better patterns will, it is believed, be obtained, since the impossibility of concealment at present forbids all expense that can be avoided. It may well be asked, if authors can so readily find protection in their labors, and inventors of the mechanical arts so easily secure a patent to reward their efforts, why should not discoverers of designs, the labor and expenditure of which may be far greater, have equal privileges afforded them?

The law, if extended, should embrace alike the protection of new and original designs for a manufacture of metal or other material, or any new and useful design for the printing of woolen, silk, cotton, or other fabric, or for a bust, statue, or bas-relief, or composition in alto or basso relievo. All this could be effected by simply authorizing the Commissioner to issue patents for these objects, under the same limitations and on the same conditions as govern present action in other cases. The duration of the patent might be seven years, and the fee might be one half of the present fee charged to citizens and foreigners respectively."

In 1842 a statute was passed to provide for the grant of patents for "any new and original design for a manufacture or for printing on a fabric.

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outwest

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iconnumber posted 02-23-2007 12:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is this the sort of thing you're talking about? Or maybe not, because these are sterling and not coin.

[pictures removed by me-posted elsewhere a long time ago smile)

[This message has been edited by outwest (edited 02-24-2007).]

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-23-2007 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Milled bands were impressed on strips of silver passed through a rolling mill, cut to size, and then soldered on the surface. The most elaborate ones were produced during the 1810-1840 period, with some simpler patterns 20 or so years earlier. Similar patterns could appear later, but were not necessarily produced by the same process, and are not the subject of the present project. We will start the glossary thread in a day or two with a few examples illustrated that should help clear up any uncertainty. The candlestick does not appear to have any milled bands; the candy dish is harder to tell about without examination, but based on the period, probably does not, either. Argentum1's examples, on the other hand, are milled.

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outwest

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 12:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Should I then remove the post? Or, maybe leave it to show the difference, eh?
Thanks.

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outwest

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 12:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How about these?
year 1843 (just past your year range of up to 1840, but the item is handmade coin)
Edward Kinsey, Cincinnati, Ohio:

This one meets your requirements. It is definitely rolled and soldered on as a band. If you need a better picture let me know and I can try to get a better one:
[later: attempt at a better picture-this one is really tough because it's on a curving edge]


This one is on the same item, but does it meet the requirements? It is a little more iffy. It is rolled, but at the end of a sheet of silver that is applied to a bottom sheet of silver:

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Outwest, I think the bands you have shown are rolled. On the bottom one the joining of the two ends can be seen.

If this thread is successful another project could be a study of finials and handles. I believe there is some thought that handles and perhaps finials were only made by a small number of silversmiths and wholesaled to others in the trade.

Also I forgot to mention in the note on laws relating to design patents that in 1842 only U.S. citizens or those becoming U.S. citizens could file for a U.S. patent. Times have changed as today close to half of the patents issued by the U.S. Patent Office are to non-U.S. citizens. Actually today the U.S. Patent Office is awash in applications from all over the world and the time for a decision gets longer each year.

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
How about these? year 1843 (just past your year range of up to 1840, but the item is handmade coin)

Yes, these are OK. The date range is only approximate. New techniques require new tools and machinery, which not everyone gets at the same time, and their acceptance by buyers can take time as well.

You can usually tell by looking for the solder joint where the ends of the strip meet; there also may be a mismatch of the design elements a that point as well.

Better images would help - simply edit out your old ones and replace them with the new.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


This is from a teapot as shown. The band is appx 7/8 inch wide and the maker is Rockwell.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Three different bands appear on this teapot. The maker is Fletcher & Gardiner.

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
This is from a teapot as shown. The band is appx 7/8 inch wide and the maker is Rockwell.

Nice pot, good photos. Edward Rockwell, I assume?

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outwest

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Argentums middle band above is EXACTLY the same as one of my bands, even down to the number of petals on the flower and the ridging for the background. Cool. How old is your pot?

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 02:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Outwest
Fletcher & Gardiner worked 1809-1827. The pot is appx. 1815-1825.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 03:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


I must like teapots. A & G Welles of Boston.

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 04:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These are all great additions -- keep them coming -- but please pay attention to the "rules" and do not duplicate pictures from other threads in the Glossary thread. There is a limit of 8 pictures per post, so I need to be able to shuffle things around, which I cannot do if there are too many intervening posts. I will move images into the glossary from the other threads myself.
The glossary will have links to the original threads in which a pattern was posted, as has been done for Argentum's first two. You can start new threads, too - it is not necessary to overextend this one.

The star-like pattern on the F&G and Kinsey pieces is a standard pattern, I think called "etoile" (asterisk or star), which I will add to the glossary list when I figure out how best to get around that 8 picture limit.

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outwest

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
argentum, You have some fabulous tea pots. If you feel you have a few too many I'd be happy to take a couple off your hands.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Swarter, the argentum1 harvest pattern has one section that includes bee hives. Could this section be included with the other section that is already shown? Bee hives are very common on Staffordshire figures, but must be pretty rare on silver.

Also, I think you are saying that duplicates should not be shown. If the duplicate has a different maker or mark can the new name be added to the original post?
If so should a photo be submitted to confirm this dupllication?
Thanks Swarter for all your work in this project.

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In order to keep the list manageable, no duplicates will be included inthe glossary thread. You are of course free to post as much documentation and as many examples as you like in other threads. Additional maker names will be added in the glossary, along with links to the threads in which examples appear, except for the standard patterns, which could have been used by any number of makers in different geographical areas.

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outwest

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2007 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wanted to check and see if you had this one, but, alas, you must be working on it because it disappeared:


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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-25-2007 08:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I second that Thank You for all your work on this. The Oscars are coming shortly and they should add one for Moderators, you all desire one.

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-25-2007 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I wanted to check and see if you had this one

No, we don't. The picture is good. What is it on?

The Kinsey floral band is too unsharp to use. Don't worry about the curvature, just so long as the center section is sharp.

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-25-2007 04:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread is continued in Varieties of silver banding part 2

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