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Author Topic:   Varieties of decorative silver banding Part 2
swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-25-2007 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread is a continuation of Varieties of decorative silver banding

[This message has been edited by wev (edited 02-25-2007).]

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-25-2007 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Originally posted by DB:

The same milled band as you show under "Rockwell" I have on a John W. Forbes teapot, New York ca.1815-20

(original post by Dorothea Burstyn)

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-25-2007 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY VATHEK:
quote:
This is a Strawberry bowl, unmarked, but I believe it is by Wood & Hughes.


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outwest

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iconnumber posted 02-25-2007 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll try to get a better one of the floral. Maybe if I use the super closeup setting on the camera (need to figure out how to do it).
The last band is the bottom of the Kinsey piece. He used three different patterns!

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vathek

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iconnumber posted 02-26-2007 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm led to wonder if smaller silversmithies were able to order rolled die banding from larger concerns, hence the duplication of patterns from different smiths.

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wev
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iconnumber posted 02-26-2007 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From a Bruce Type Foundry (New York City) specimen c 1820





These are piece ornaments, but the company (founded in 1812) also cut bookbinder's rollettes for producing continuous bands of blind and gilt decoration on books. It would seem a simple step from these to the die disks used to mill silver bands.

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FWG

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iconnumber posted 02-26-2007 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't remember where I've seen it, but I do remember reading that milled bands were available wholesale -- just like one could order sheet or wire, one could order milled flat wire with such patterns. The production of the dies to do that is a rather specialized art, and not something most silversmiths probably would've wanted to spend their time on when it could be more profitably spent making silver!

One of outwest's examples is rather interesting since it appears to be curved around a conical section of a base rather than around a cylindrical section like a body, rim, or foot. That would most likely be produced by setting the rolling mill unevenly (making it thicker on one side than the other); forging the rolled band after it was produced would likely obliterate the design. But I can't remember seeing another such example.

[This message has been edited by FWG (edited 02-26-2007).]

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-26-2007 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sometimes bands on curved surfaces are deceiving, being embossed - which can be determined by looking at (or feeling) for the pattern on the inside surface - rather than milled and applied over a smooth surface.

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DB

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iconnumber posted 02-26-2007 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the late nineties I saw an American teapot at Christie's New York with a milled band, which was signed every time the motif repeated. Unfortunately could not "unearth" the example from the catalogues.

Yes, milled bands were findings, which silversmiths bought from specialized makers.

Just as an aside Viennese silversmiths extensively used milled bandings around the same time (1810-1840), if there is any interest I'll post some pictures - the motifs are curiously similar like Etoile, etc.

Interesting subject, congratulations, swarter and wev.

------------------
Dorothea Burstyn

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 02-26-2007 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
One of outwest's examples is rather interesting since it appears to be curved around a conical section of a base rather than around a cylindrical section like a body, rim, or foot.

Narrow bands like Beaded and Gadrooned were routinely applied around irregular surfaces, such as the rims of creamers with no evidence of forging. Softening by heating may have been sufficient, but one of our silversmiths will have to opine on this.

As for the application of wider bands to conical surfaces, note the Greek Key band shown in the Standard Pattern section of the Milled Band Glossary. It shows some distortions on the high points of the pattern that may be indicative of tool work. That band is around the "collar" of a small sugar bowl by R & W Wilson (Philadelphia), and is the same width as the one around the foot. Was the one made from the other?

Note that the solder joint on the bottom band is evident on the left, where the pattern on the cut ends did not quite match.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 02-02-2010 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote



Argentum1's wagon in the glossary of milled bands is filled with harvest of some type. This cup has what appears to be the same milled band, but the wagon is empty (see the first close up picture of the milled band). Where did the contents go? Was this band an earlier version or did they make two bands?
This cup does not have a makers mark on it.

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Ulysses Dietz
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iconnumber posted 02-02-2010 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The band that Swarter pictures above seems to be the same as this:



Which appears on two pieces in Newark's collection marked by Baldwin and Company of Newark.



We have further evidence in our collection here that the dies for this particular die-roll were produced by Ferdinand Herpers, also of Newark.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-02-2010 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AHWT

I am envious of your cup as the band is very crisp and looks almost new. I take comfort in telling myself that your band is around the base therefore less wear. Nice cup, enjoy.

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argentum1

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iconnumber posted 02-03-2010 03:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

This band is the same as on the closed thread but that one is badly pixilated so I am replacing it with these photos.

This band is on the original thread but I cannot edit it. The photos are pixilated so I am replacing then with these two photos.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 06-11-2021 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote



The cup on the left is marked G. Boyce NY for Gerardus Boyce. There in another milled band like this on in the Glossary of Bands that argentum1 posted some time ago that is a little earlier as it is marked Boyce and Jones. Gerardus was by himself starting in 1830.
The cup on the right I posted some time ago and it is unmarked. There are slight variations, but most likely they were both made by the same company. I do not have evidence for this, but I suspect that these bands were available to any silversmith who wanted to buy them.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 06-11-2021).]

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