posted 03-16-2008 03:28 PM            

Argentum's post in another forum section (Beware)was fascinating. As someone who is still trying to develop connoisseurship (a/k/a a good eye!), I would be very grateful if others would be willing to post images and experiences that others might learn from.

One problem in this field is that it's hard to learn by handling materials with knowledgeable people -- there simply aren't a lot of opportunities. I've benefited from some helpful dealers and auction specialists, but it's hardly an immersion experience. (I took a wonderful seminar in college on 'print connoisseurship' -- where we were constantly viewing materials, good and bad. The final exam was a test of identifying fakes.)

For example, dealers talk a lot about the color of old silver. I haven't developed an eye for the subtleties of that yet -- and that's probably hard to show on a website. But perhaps there are other lessons some of the knowledgeable members here might share....

posted 03-16-2008 04:38 PM            

This was posted recently on That Auction Site as a "meat serving fork" with a starting bid higher than most real cold meat forks:

I communicated with the seller to say that I hoped s/he hadn't paid very much for what was obviously a dinner fork that someone had taken a pliers to, badly. And that I hoped even more s/he wasn't the one who wielded the pliers.

The response: "I don't make them; I just sell them."

Which sounded to me as if s/he knew exactly how bogus this item was. No bids, I'm happy to report.

posted 03-16-2008 09:18 PM            

I have a question about that fork. Are there any forks that have a similar appearance that have not been pried apart & made to look like something else?

Jersey

posted 03-16-2008 09:27 PM            

At least with that fork, a competent silversmith can bring the tines back to their original shape. I once had a Tiffany Vine dinner fork in a similar state that was very easily restored.

posted 03-16-2008 10:25 PM            

It seems to me that there are two basic kinds of mistakes in connoisseurship. The first is to be fooled by a forgery -- something that looks like the real thing. The second (and I've had this experience on this site) is to be fooled by things that are 'right' but slightly unusual. And for that, I think the only cure is to look at lots of materials -- first hand or in images.

posted 03-17-2008 05:26 PM            

Thanks ellabee for that info.

Members, I got one of those pried apart forks too. The good thing is I payed virtually nothing for it & it is a Tiffany Kings EP one, & bent quite nicely. It's great for piercing pies or potatoes, or warding off intruders!

Jersey

posted 03-17-2008 09:19 PM            

I too got fooled by a "mustard ladle" from the online auction site. There seems to be quite a good market for these "re-imagined" pieces as I have seen sorbet spoon sets, ice cream spoons and forks, baked potato forks etc. In fact, the big online replacement service has a whole section devoted to "hand-crafted" pieces (not only in silver, but in china and crystal as well), where they show you a drawing of what the piece will look like and what actual piece they use to make it.

Now I don't really have a problem with these pieces if they were marked as altered but it really gets me mad when they try to pass them off as original pieces.

Robert

PS, I have kept the mustard ladle as a reminder to always check my reference books and to think twice if a piece looks too good to be true.

posted 03-18-2008 10:18 AM            

Pretty well everyone who collects for any length of time will end up wearing a few mistakes, so learn from them what you can.

posted 03-18-2008 03:01 PM            

It is unfortunate that many items out of something else and are passed off as original items. It makes all us silver dealers look like crooks, and I am not happy about that.

If you sell an item as a converted piece, that works.. No problem. But, when I pointed out to sellers who were selling conversions as original pieces that they ought to tell the public the truth, they took affront.

Now.. I have never been shy, but this is a dangerous business, so I have learned that the best way to handle the problem of misrepresentation is to educate the buying public.

To start out with, most mustard ladles are made out of teaspoons.. The best way to avoid buying a converted teaspoon is to put the converted piece smack on top of a teaspoon of the same pattern and see if it could be done..

For the mustard ladles, coffee spoons and large demitasse spoons are also being used because they have smaller handles that are more in proportion.

Butter picks are being made out of flat handled butter spreaders, and teaspoons.

I purchased 3 years ago what I thought was an 'ideal olive spoon' in a 'hot' pattern, only to find out it was a converted ice tea spoon. It is not much fun to pay $XXX. for a piece only to realize it was faked, and worth one third of the purchase price.

Cheese scoops are being made out of tablespoons is also a popular conversion.

One way to spot fakes on the "ultra large auction" site is to see how many of the "rare" pieces one person is selling. If it is more than one or two, chances are that they are selling conversions.

Conversions are inexpensive. Most anything made from a sterling spoon costs $5.00.. Same thing with making baked potato forks, and ice cream forks.

Most of the large pattern matching services, will list conversions as "custom made" or "hand crafted". This will include the above mentioned conversions plus all manner of things put into old knife handles,
including, but not limited to, punch ladles, asparagus servers, wedding cake knives, pasta servers, ice cream scoops, cake breakers, and pie servers. These pieces also come from the factory like this to.

Buyer Beware. The best education is done by touching. Museums are always a good place to start, as are friendly shops, and antiques shows and flea markets. Do not diss a sellers merchandise in front of him. Bad form!.. but do ask questions...

Most dealers welcome questions, even dumb ones, (questions, not people). We depend on educating the public, just like Scott does by hosting the SMP Forums. If you have a question about a piece at a show,and the dealers is not busy showing something to someone else, ASK your question.

Enough of me for now.. Any Questions?

posted 03-18-2008 09:38 PM            

I just can't believe anyone would ever do this to a punch ladle. Its just criminal.

Robert

posted 03-18-2008 09:56 PM            

Somewhere in the back of my head I think there are bent ladles such as this, for resting on the punch bowl. Is this one? I can't say, perhaps someone can help me (us), here.

Happy Holiday!

Jersey

posted 03-19-2008 12:52 AM            

This is an example of a home-made bonbonaire
for nuts, by nuts. And... just like the fork shown by ELLABEE, it can be rehabilitated. Almost certainly the person selling it did not make it like this. An engineer son trying to please his mother is most likely the guilty party.

posted 03-19-2008 01:04 AM            

How about "butter picks" or "lobster picks" made by snipping off the outer tines of a fork and twisting the remaining tine?

I can't find it now, but I saw a lovely old master butter knife (can't remember the pattern, but people here would recognize it) being sold as a bangle--it had been bent in a circle. I was tempted to buy it and try to rescue it, but I knew I would never be able to unbend it myself.