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 My silver expierence with [online auction]
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| Author | Topic: My silver expierence with [online auction] |
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Kate Posts: 7 |
posted 02-11-2015 07:26 PM
  
Hi! My name is Kate. I just started to collect silver, and really enjoy this forum. My first items came to me from my parents, this is 2 sets of dinner flatware Gorham Chantilly. I know I will sound like a newbie (this is who I am), but I decided to get more to complete the set to the set of 6 or 8. I like to invite people for dinners, and it would be really nice to have Chantilly set for that purpose. I know this is a very popular and uninteresting for many of you pattern. But I really like it. I the moment I have some other items from Tiffany. Anyways, it seems that [online auction], where I tried to purchase a place size fork, is full of fakes. The fork that I've got, is very similar to what I already have. But it is clear, that something is wrong with it. First of all, it looks very new, but it does not shine as mine. I tried to polish it, and it stays the same. The polish cream "reacts" differently to it, and gives a dark yellowish color, instead of dark blue. I've attached a photo of both forks. Maybe you can explain me what is going on. Is it really fake Gorham? What would be a reason to make one? They are not terribly expansive to cheat like that. I apologize for such possibly uninteresting questions, I just started to learn silver and enjoy it. Also I feel that many people can benefit from this post. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 02-12-2015 12:08 PM
Welcome to the forum! As for fakes, some of the rare and earlier stuff by Gorham is faked for sure, but Chantilly, I can't imagine why... My Guess is that it's real, but simply a brand new remake. IP: Logged |
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Kate Posts: 7 |
posted 02-12-2015 12:24 PM
quote: The thing is it's not well polished and I can not polish it to the regular shape of the silver. I also found some info that these forks have been faked. I never did silver tests, is it safe to drop some acid on the piece? Or should I apply stone firstly? IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-12-2015 01:46 PM
Don't test with acid. it causes damage and will devalue good silver. First show us a clear close up of the marks. IP: Logged |
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Kate Posts: 7 |
posted 02-12-2015 01:54 PM
The mark is exactly the same as on my old fork. But this fork is not polished, and as I mentioned the silver polish cream gives different color. and it feels differently in my hands. I also got one fork from [online auction], which is exactly the same as my previous ones. Here is the mark. Also you can see on the photo, it does not shine. I was polishing it very hard, but it is what it is. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-12-2015 01:57 PM
In the your photos it is hard to see any detail but I am assuming the item in question is left and bottom? The Chantilly patten has had a long production period. The dies get warn and replaced. The die markers sometimes don't have the same skill that earlier die makers did... sometimes the company changes the dies to make lighter weight (less silver, less expensive) items. IP: Logged |
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Kate Posts: 7 |
posted 02-12-2015 02:09 PM
quote: Yes, you've guessed right the position of my suspicious fork IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-12-2015 02:10 PM
The mark shown is a contemporary Gorham mark. The "diamond p" I suspect is a weight mark. Weight marks on Gorham Chantilly IP: Logged |
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Kate Posts: 7 |
posted 02-12-2015 02:21 PM
Yes, this is what is called "P"lace size fork. I aim for 6-8 of them, for a set. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-12-2015 02:29 PM
Better photos and/or personnel inspection is required to begin to speculate about it being a fake. But as it looks now, it appears to be of recent manufacture and it doesn't appear to be cast, so most likely it is real. But from a period where Gorham manufacturing quality wasn't that good. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-12-2015 02:33 PM
As it regards the "dark yellowish color" the item could have had a protective coating applied and your polish/coating is the cause. IP: Logged |
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chase33 Posts: 362 |
posted 02-12-2015 10:09 PM
Hey, My two cents worth: Chantilly is my favorite pattern and I have seen a ton of it. I have never seen or read where any Chantilly has been faked. It wouldn't be profitable to fake any, especially common pieces like place size forks. Now some pieces have been "converted" to imitate older pieces (i.e. teaspoons made into ice cream forks) but those are usually really easy to spot. Hope this helps IP: Logged |
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Kate Posts: 7 |
posted 02-13-2015 12:43 PM
Thank you all for your replies! It does not make sense to make a duplicate. Also I found this article on the web: quote: It does not say any specific details, how to determine a fake. Very confusing... IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-13-2015 09:59 PM
I cannot say whether it is a fake and that is always a possibility these days, though I would not think it a high probability with such a common pattern. The problem that I see with mass produced silver (as opposed to the hand crafted silver) these days is the big companies have chosen to not put as much detail and work into each piece in order to increase their profits. When I look at a piece of flatware made in the late 1800s to the early 1900s and compare it to a modern production piece of the same pattern the higher quality of the old pieces just leaps out at me. IP: Logged |
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Sgt Silver Posts: 41 |
posted 02-21-2015 05:33 PM
Hi Kate, My grandmother was married in 1907 and a set of Chantilly was a wedding gift she received. In her later years she worked to make sure that it was a complete set. I inherited it in 1973. Over the years I have added to it - extensively - as I have found both place pieces and serving pieces that either she did not have, or were pieces introduced later in this 1895 pattern. By later, I'm thinking after 1940 when my grandfather passed away. We use the Chantilly every day; it does not go into the dishwasher, and the nightly drying, after dinner, helps a patina develop. Every couple of years I think, OK, it's time to take some of the tarnish off the fork tines. Gorham's mark evolved over the years, and the several forms of 'Lion-Anchor-G' are the oldest. Your 'Gorham Sterling' is relatively recent. "Gorham (script) Sterling" is even more recent. As Scott noted, as the years have passed, pieces have been made thinner and lighter. While the P in a diamond appears to be a weight mark, I don't believe that I have seen it before. Carpenter's book Gorham Silver lists these weight marks: T Trade, E Extra, [no mark] Regular, H Heavy and M Massive. Similar to Chase's experiences, I have never seen faked Chantilly, although re-purposed pieces, often made from seriously injured items, are seen from time to time. Hey, Silverphiles, could the funny color be a result be the result of someone having used that awful Simi-Chrome? IP: Logged |
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Sgt Silver Posts: 41 |
posted 02-21-2015 06:54 PM
Additional information, and a correction. A seven inch place spoon, in the old catalogs a Dessert Spoon which has my grandmother's initials as a mono, is marked 'Pat. 1895 'lion-anchor-G' Sterling". When I was young we called them 'oval soup spoons.' Kate, looking an the forks that were my grandmother's, the dinner fork is 7 1/2 inches and the luncheon fork is 7 inches. They are labeled Table Fork and Dessert Fork in the 1914 Catalog reproduction. I also have 6 inch Tea Forks with the same mark. How long is your fork? IP: Logged |
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Heartwings Posts: 15 |
posted 02-21-2015 08:55 PM
The Chinese are faking things that cost way less than a piece of sterling flatware (I saw a show that exposed Chinese fakes of American name brand toothpaste) and there is great profit in anything that can be sold for ten times what it cost to make it, so it is possible. (Of course the seller may not have known if it is indeed a fake.) I have read Chantilly (that my mom had & brother now does) is the most popular sterling flatware pattern in the world, so there would be a good market for fakes of it. Have you tried using a precise digital scale to see if both pieces have the same weight? If one piece is solid silver and one is actually plated or some sort of alloy there may be a difference in weights. Obviously markings mean nothing as they can be faked. I have my grandma's set of Stieff Rose that was started in the 30's and has had pieces added over 85 or so years and all of them look and polish up the same (except for variations in the pattern itself from the manufacturer.) The only thing anyone would notice is some pieces show more wear from use than others. IP: Logged |
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. So the answer to my question is "Gorham itself made this weird fork". Is it correct to assume that the mark can not be duplicated? and if the item is fake, then there should not be a mark "sterling" on it? Why there is a difficulty in duplicating the entire piece? I just don't know the technology of the production, but it should not be very trivial, I guess.