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Author Topic:   Help dating Kirk silver mark
Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-19-2016 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Checking to see if there are any Kirk aficionados who could give me an opinion as to the date range of this mark. From what I have found, the mark fits the 1846 to 1861 era, but there appears to be some conflicting information as to how long they used the 11oz mark. Since the "son" is singular, this eliminates the 1861 to 1868 era, so this mark is either just before or just after that period?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!!

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 12:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jennifer Faulds Goldsborough in her book "Silver in Maryland" attributes Kirk and Son mark to the years 1846-61 and 1868-96. She shows the 11oz and the 10.15 mark used in both periods.
Goldsborough in her book "Maryland Silver" also shows the 925/1000 mark being in the 1868-96 period.
After 1896 "CO" was added to their Kirk and Son mark.
Dorothy Rainwater in her book Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers shows 925/1000 mark in use as early as 1868, but I did not find anything in the text of these books that states when Kirk started using the sterling standard.
You may be able to use the style of your piece to better identify the time period of your piece.

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your input and and information. I am aware of the "Maryland Silver" book, but the "silver in Maryland book" is one I will look for.

My thought, not to be taken as fact, is that the earlier (1846-1861) 11oz mark was a single punch. The 11oz marks that I have seen from the later period in combination with the more scripted S. KIRK & SON (1890-1896) mark is different. These later 11oz marks appear as individual letters rather than a single punch. Seem reasonable?

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Once there is a marking punch made I am not sure it is always safe to assume it was in use for only one time period, unless there is evidence that it was broken at some point. Perhaps adding a nice photo or two of the overall object might help in coming up with a likely dating as ahwt helpfully points out?

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, I will plan to post photos

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are a couple of pics:




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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pictures on silver seemed to be popular in the 1840s and 1850s either on items such as Polly’s card cases (Leonard & Wilson card cases) or on water pitchers (Bailey & Kitchen : Taylor & Lawrie). They must have been popular in Maryland as well as New York as Kirk certainly made a fine pair.

I would guess that your ewers or pitchers were from the same time period.

I am not really clear on when a pitcher is as called a ewer, but normally when the throat is narrow it seemed to be called a ewer.

Thanks for sharing.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From what I read in the reference books Kirk marketed three grades of silver in the period 1868-1896;e.g. 10.15 oz, 11 oz and 925/1000. That seems a bit excessive even for the late 1800s, but it may be true.
Does that seem excessive to anyone else?

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 06:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That sounds correct:

10.15 is 89.58% pure
[(Divide 10.75 (15/20 pennyweight) by 12oz]

11oz is 91.66% pure
[Divide 11oz by 12oz (one troy pound)]

925/1000 is of course sterling at 92.5% pure

Another way to look at it is:

Old Kirk "coin" standard: 10.15
Later Kirk "coin" standard: 11oz
Sterling standard: 11.2 or 925/1000

It appears that Baltimore had its own "silver standard" that was not necessarily in line with the US standard.

In 1837 Congress standardized coin silver to be 900/1000 or 90% pure. So It seems that the Kirk 10.15 silver fell just below this, and the 11oz silver put them just above this 90% standard.

An I on the right track or am I totally confused?

[This message has been edited by Vetdaddy (edited 09-20-2016).]

[This message has been edited by Vetdaddy (edited 09-20-2016).]

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 07:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ahwt- thanks for the link to the card cases and water pitcher- incredible!!

[This message has been edited by Vetdaddy (edited 09-22-2016).]

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 09-20-2016 11:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Silver in Maryland book notes that Kirk also had a 10.19 mark under the word Crown. This was to signify that they used French coins in the item. I have never seen a piece with this mark.
A third book that you may be interested in is Maryland Silversmiths 1715-1850 by J. Hall Pleasants and Howard Sill. This was initially published in 1930 and was reprinted in 1972 by Robert Alan Green.

I did a search on bookfinder and both the 1930 and 1972 editions are available.

Do you know if the buildings shown on your Kirk pieces are representations of real buildings?

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 09-21-2016).]

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-21-2016 09:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not aware if they represent actual buildings. This pair is fresh to my collection, so I am early in my research. Although these ewers were no doubt made as a pair, the scenes are slightly different. I will post some more pictures when I have more time.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 09-21-2016 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My initial guess is 1840 to 1860 period.

Very nice addition! smile

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dragonflywink

Posts: 993
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 09-21-2016 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The building in the last pic looks very similar to what is now the Saint Francis Xavier Catholic Church, built in 1836 as the First Universalist Church, and used as an assembly hall in the 1840s-50s...

~Cheryl

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-21-2016 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks to all for your input. Cheryl, I will research the church that you mentioned, thanks!!.

Here are a few more pictures to tell the full story. Although these were obviously made as a pair, the scenes on each are different.

The next two pictures are scenes on the front of the ewers. My best guess is that they represent war and peace:

The next two pictures are masks below each spout. Their meaning?:


The next picture is the coat of arms that is identical on each ewer:

My best guess is that this set was made for a wealthy Anglo-Irish family that immigrated to Baltimore.

These ewers have very little patina and appear to have seen little to no use. This seems strange considering their age, but this next picture gives a clear explanation.
They were apparently stored throughout the years in their original shipping box:


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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 09-21-2016 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A magnificent pair. The Latin motto beneath the coat of arms reads "frangas non flectes" - you may break not bend. My copy of Fairbairn's Crests attributes this to several families but I am afraid I cannot match the crest above the arms to any of them and I don't have any reference work that might help with the arms themselves.

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 09-21-2016).]

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-21-2016 09:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have not had any (Irish) luck in identifying the crest. The closest that I have found is that for "Tully." The shape of their crest along with their "chevron" and three "griffins" is in the ballpark.

This genealogy stuff is not easy. I found there are many variants of the Tully surname, including Flood, Floyd, Floode, Floyde, Tully, MacTully, Tally, Talley.....and apparently many others.

Soon I will surrender.

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-23-2016 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do not recognize the engraved achievement of arms, but I can add that the crest (the design above the shield) includes a coronet (crown) which has a very specific meaning. Depending on your rank in the peerage, the upper ranks use a crown or a coronet depending on your rank and the design of it changes with each rank. This particular coronet design with five points with the two on the ends being strawberry leaves and the second and fourth being pearls signifies that this crest belonged to either a Marquess or one of his heirs. I do not see any cadency markings in the upper area of the shield so this would more likely belong to the person who was the Marquess himself rather than one of his sons, but one does not always see cadency markings on the shields of sons especially when there is only one. The cadency marking for an eldest son is a bar with three lines coming down and looks like a capital E on its side. A second son is a crescent, and third son would have a star, a fourth son would have a bird, a fifth son would have a ring, etc.

A Marquess is a very highly ranked member of the peerage - he is ranked above an Earl and below a Duke so I am not sure why any Marquess would have been living in Maryland. It is possible these could have been made to send back to the Marquess in England and perhaps was never sent for some reason, or it could be a fantasy armorial achievement to make the ewers look fancier.

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 09-23-2016 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kimo

I am not sure that is right. The coronet here is part of the crest with the griffin's (?) head rising out of it. If the coronet were a marker of rank in the nobility it would be above the crest.

While a crest is normally on a torse, there are a good many which are blazoned as out of a coronet, or on a chapeau and the like, without signifying a title.

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Vetdaddy

Posts: 70
Registered: Feb 2016

iconnumber posted 09-23-2016 11:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vetdaddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Kimo and Agphile for your input. This is definitely beyond my field of expertise. Although I do feel the armorial(s) are contemporary, the thought crossed my mind that even in the mid 1800's, someone might have been reminiscing the past.

I did find a couple of similar, but not exact crests with a griffin head arising from a coronet. This seems to be a not so rare combination with no specific attribute. Below is one picture that I found:

I will back track from my acquisition and if successful, post any information that I find.

Are there any thoughts as to country of origin?

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-24-2016 09:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Agphile.

I am referring to British arms. While the king or queen and the princes have just a crown, the ranks below that have a coronet with a crest arising from the top. If you like you can search on 'college of arms' and 'crowns and crests' and there you will see some very nicely carved 3-D crests of some Knights of the Garter that are on display at Arundel Castle. The ones belonging to the higher ranking nobility (Earls, Viscounts, etc.) feature a coronet with a device arising from it.

I have some personal familiarity with British arms.

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agphile

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iconnumber posted 09-24-2016 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Kimo

I ought first to put right I slip I made in my earlier comment. When I wrote of the coronet to depict rank being above the crest, I was thinking of engravings that showed only the crest, not the full arms. An illustration (from a book binding rather than a piece of silver) will show what I mean. This is for the Marquess of Hertford.

It is the style I am most familiar with on British silver. While I have seen one or two examples of this happening above a coat of arms as well, it is a very small minority of cases and probably betrays ignorance by the engraver or lack of interest by the owner. You are of course right that correctly speaking the coronet should be on top of the shield and the crest above that. Indeed, on a full-blown version the crest would be atop a helmet above the coronet. This for the Marquess of Bristol:

In practice the helmet is often omitted. Thus, for the Marquess of Salisbury:

The crossed arrows crest simply floats above the coronet.

Where I think we differ is that you are seeing the crest on the ewers as being something on these lines whereas I am seeing them as more like the following for a Mr Edward Webb (not a peer).

Here the coronet is part of the crest and not a signifier of rank in the peerage.

However, I do not claim expertise in heraldry. What little I think I know derives from engravings on silver (mostly simply crests) that I have tried to research, with variable success. I have used pictures from book bindings here, rather than silver, because they are more easily accessible (I don’t have the right examples on silver I own). Whether I am right or not, I hope the pictures at least show why I am not sure we are looking at the arms and crest of a Marquess.

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 09-24-2016).]

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agphile

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iconnumber posted 09-25-2016 03:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PS I should for clarity have added the explanation that the crest for the Marquess of Hertford shown above is surmounted by an Earl's coronet. I assume that simply means it was done while he was still an Earl and yet to become a Marquess. It would not have been practicable to alter every embossing and engraving while advancing through the peerage.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

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Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 09-25-2016 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread may have sparked some new members to register. In their registration they say their interest is in Heraldry.

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hwmw

Posts: 3
Registered: Sep 2016

iconnumber posted 09-26-2016 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hwmw     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Martin:
This thread may have sparked some new members to register. In their registration they say their interest is in Heraldry.

That would probably be me.

This is certainly an intricate piece of silver and some fine engraving.

The cross-hatching on the shield of arms indicates the colour scheme. The background is black, the chevron is half silver (the plain part) and half gold (the dotted part), and the gryphons' heads are also silver.

According to Bolton's "American Armory", these are the arms of someone named Bourne. Bolton also gives the crest (a gryphon's head ducally gorged, holding a rose) and motto as shown on the ewer.

Perhaps a reference book on old Maryland families will turn up a Bourne family that might provide further clues.

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