SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
Continental / International Silver Forum
How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  Continental / International Silver
tline3open  Dutch beaker 1837?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Dutch beaker 1837?
MarkMichaels

Posts: 4
Registered: Dec 2004

iconnumber posted 12-22-2004 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MarkMichaels     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A silver (looks like silver to a novice) beaker probably a Jewish Kiddush cup belonging to my gg grandmother Flora born 1837 Groningen Netherlands engraved with her name and a flower drawing carries a single mark on the base. All enclosed in a "squashed" square <> the capital letter C followed by what looks like a small suitcase motif followed by capital letter T. Any help appreciated.

[This message has been edited by MarkMichaels (edited 12-22-2004).]

IP: Logged

t-man-nc

Posts: 327
Registered: Mar 2000

iconnumber posted 12-22-2004 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for t-man-nc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your site is asking for a password...

IP: Logged

blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 12-22-2004 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't access the photo either, but I'm surprised it has only the maker's mark. Dutch pieces of the period (and today, for that matter) should have four marks: the assay office mark (Perseus' head, with a letter on his helmet indicating the specific office); the standard/fineness mark (a lion); the date letter; and the maker's mark. I'm assuming that the beaker is large enough to hold all four. If not, there was (and still is) a single mark for small items: a dagger, which guaranteed the minimum silver fineness of .833. Check the beaker carefully with a loupe or magnifying glass and see if you can't find any other marks (like the dagger); Dutch pieces can have the marks carefully hidden.

That being said, I can't find any Dutch maker "CT" as you describe. Could it be "GT"? If so, then the "suitcase" is actually an old style press, and the mark - "G/press/T", in an oblong hexagon - that of Gerardus Coenraad Abraham Thiensma of Amsterdam, working 1820-1831.

I know you said you were a novice, but perhaps you (and other members) might find interesting the following bit of trivia regarding the shape of Dutch maker's marks during the 1st half of the 19th Century.

At the beginning of the century, the Netherlands was part of Napoleon's Empire and used the French marks of the time, so Dutch maker's marks were required to be in the form of a lozenge. After Napoleon was defeated, a new Dutch law of 1814 decreed that Dutch maker's marks were to be perfectly square (though the old French-style marks were permitted to be used until they were worn out.)

Silversmiths balked at this - the square shape being impractical for small work - so from 1817 on they were allowed to use a rectangular mark for smaller items.

The oblong hexagon mark you describe was introduced in 1822. It was reserved for pieces which had lower standard silver solder on them, though the bulk of the piece - 99.8% by weight - had to be of legal fineness. (Apparently some Dutch silversmiths were taking advantage of a loophole in the law which made no restrictions on the use of the lower standard solder and were using it to excess.)

G. C. A. Thiensma, as did most early 19th Century silversmiths, had all three marks- square, rectangle and oblong hexagon - available for his use.

Dutch marking laws were revised in 1853 and no provision was made for the shape of maker's marks, but most continued with the traditional shapes and their respective uses.

Much later, importer's marks were given specific shapes corresponding to the city of the importer, but I'll stop there, since I suspect I've already said more than anyone might find helpful or, for that matter, interesting. :-)

[This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 12-22-2004).]

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 12-22-2004 10:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MarkMichaels,

IP: Logged

labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 12-22-2004 10:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I give up, send me the photos, I will post them. Guessing is ridiculous.

IP: Logged

labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 12-23-2004 09:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As it turns out the photo was a sketch, so I won't bother posting it. It was, as described,: CT with a suitcase in between in a lozenge shaped cartouche. That struck me as more likely French, and I asked a few more questions. I haven’t gotten a response but I just sent this note: “ Actually I can, fairly confidently, answer my own questions. The mark was very small probably around 1/8 of an inch long. There was a small mark on the side near the rim. That mark is the head of the Minerva. The maker’s mark is that of Charles TIRBOUR who worked in France c. 1900. Possibly someone on the Forum can narrow that range.

Maurice

You should post the history of the cup, quite interesting.”

I think that solves the mystery. Many novices miss the marks on French pieces as they don’t know where to look. The same is even true of English pieces although I have always thought you would have to be visually impaired in that case.

IP: Logged

blakstone

Posts: 493
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 12-23-2004 11:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for blakstone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry for the wild goose chase, but it sounded like a good guess with no photo to go on. I can add that Charles Tirbour's mark was registered on 8 Jan 1897 and cancelled on 20 Mar 1951.

IP: Logged

labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 12-23-2004 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey I was happy to read the response, even if it didn't pan out. Very interesting post.

IP: Logged

MarkMichaels

Posts: 4
Registered: Dec 2004

iconnumber posted 12-23-2004 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MarkMichaels     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am awed by the depth of knowledge, thank you all for your assistance.

There is a short story behind the cup. My great grandfather was one of six brothers born in Holland. My greatgrandfather's brother Ben married first in France then twice in Spain. I was visiting the niece of the 3rd wife's sister (age 86) and she produced this cup which she said she was certain belonged to Ben's mother Flora. This is the first meeting between these branches of the family for over 50 years. In Jewish tradition such cups are often given at birth. That would be 1837. To confuse matters Ben had a daughter Flora born 1901 in Paris who died in 1904. The cup resides with the elderly lady in Spain, I live in Wales. I will e-mail her grandaughter to enquire about a minerva mark near the rim but it may take a week or two to get an answer. With renewed thanks.Mark

IP: Logged

labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 01-02-2005 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We have received pictures of the beaker.
So we were right about the French origin of the cup. The mark is only described in my list, but it seems correct. This is also a bit of an education, family stories are always interesting, but quite honestly, rarely accurate. This cup obviously belonged to the second Flora and dates c. 1901.

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4095
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-02-2005 09:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2020 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices