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Author Topic:   Russian spoon
Russell

Posts: 52
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 10-29-2005 10:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear Friends,
I have a late 19th to early 20th century Russian silver gilt niello spoon with a view of a city on the back of the bowl. Can anyone identify the city from the architecture depicted?
It looks as if the kokoshnik or the maker's mark is upside down. Could the maker's mark (a little blurry) be that of Maria Semenova?
Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Russell

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 10-29-2005 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Moscow. The large building to the right is the Grand Palace of the Kremlin. Could we see photos the whole spoon?

Tom

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 11-01-2005 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very nice spoon! Sazikov2000 has a set of spoons in a similar style, once shown Russian spoon, but unfortunately his images (at the time I write this) are unavailable. His are by Sergei Agafanov.

Yours, however, might indeed bear Semenova's mark. I know that the company's previous owner (Semenova's father, I think), Vasilii Semenov, made very many such spoons. In the above referenced thread, I mention an item in the stores of the Kremlin Armoury. If you care to look, I believe it's illustrated in the Kovarskaya book on the armoury.

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sazikov2000

Posts: 254
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-01-2005 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sazikov2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MC, Latin MS is not always Maria Vasilijevna Sokolva! She mostly worked in enamel cloisonné!
The spoons here were made by the Moscow firm Sokolov M. F. (1860-1890) specialised in niello spoons.

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Russell

Posts: 52
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 11-01-2005 05:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear IJP and Sazikov,
Thank you for your valuable information. I am attaching a photo of the entire spoon. Thanks again, much appreciated.

Maybe I need a new brain!
Russell

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 11-01-2005 08:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My aspiration is to one day be as sharp as S2K when it comes to Russian silver. I suppose he is right: If I recall (as I don't at present have the Postnikova-Loseva reference), the only mark definitively attributed to Maria Vasilievna Semenova is MC wherein the left-hand stroke of the "em" is somewhat jagged.

There is a Sokolova, however, probably the daughter of the aforementioned, whose mark is not especially distinguishable from the Sokolov mark.

It is Semenova who worked primarily in enamels, I believe.

Also, S2K, the left-facing kokoshnik was not introduced until 1896, and not fully enforced until several years later. Would this not be inconsistent with your maker identification (1860-1890)? Just a little friendly banter, Sazikov2000...

[This message has been edited by IJP (edited 11-01-2005).]

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Russell

Posts: 52
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 11-01-2005 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear IJP and Sazikov,
After re-checking Paulson...he seems to indicate that the Kokoshnik - 84 with diademed woman's head facing left was used from 1896 to 1908,
Should the dates when M.F. Sokolov was active be extended into the period of Kokoshnik use?
Thanks.
Sincerely,
Russell

[This message has been edited by Russell (edited 11-01-2005).]

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IJP

Posts: 326
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 11-02-2005 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for IJP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have had a chance to consult the Postnikova-Loseva text.

Sokolova is actually Maria Ivanovna, i.e. the daughter of an Ivan Sokolov, and not of M.F. Sokolov, though there may yet be some relation.

My Russian is not perfect, PL seems to say of Sokolov: "silver- and niello-work master; in 1860s-1890s had a workshop..." and goes on to describe more or less the size and scope of said workshop, as PL invariably does when possible.

That said, S2K's submission of M.F. Sokolov as your maker would seem to be correct. With PL's illustration in front of me, in comparing the mark to that provided above, I am in full agreement with Sazikov2000 that your spoon was made by that workshop.

[This message has been edited by IJP (edited 11-02-2005).]

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sazikov2000

Posts: 254
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-02-2005 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sazikov2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is a big mistery why you can find silver with the Kokoshnik facing left (in use from 1896-1908), made by a silversmith working from 1860-90. After studying hundreds and hundreds of different silver items, my conclusion is: the selling firms had stocks, which they sold when asked. Just think about how long it takes to make lets say spoons like shown in the foto for 12 or 24 persons. And there were 5 major different designs, which the customer could choose!

By the way, it is very frustrating to get always the fotos "snipped" - that is the reason why I stopped contributing fotos. In my eyes this site is living from fotos and not of someone who plays the elementary school teacher - it would be better to correct the mistakes silently. Taking fotos and writing comments take time. Day-flys need no fotos!

Sazikov 2000

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sazikov2000

Posts: 254
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-02-2005 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sazikov2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IJP-
if you want to learn more about Russian Silver may I suggest you buy the book "Russian Gold and Silverwork, 17th - 19th Century" by Alexander von Solodkoff. It is in English language, you have most of your questions answered, nearly all relevant hallmarks of the famous silversmiths and a lot of eyeopening text. It took me 10 years to know what you can read in two days!

Sazikov 2000

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ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-16-2005 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your recommended book came yesterday and it is all you say. Thanks so much. "Russian Gold and Silverwork, 17th - 19th Century" by Alexander von Solodkoff is also printed in German, did the Russians get one in their language?

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sazikov2000

Posts: 254
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-16-2005 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sazikov2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ahwt

Glad you take a pleasure in this book.

The Russians have their own literature, the famous "Zolotoje i Serebjanoje delo XV-XX cc " by M. M. Postnikova-Loseva, N. G. Platonova, B. L. Uljanova

Sazikov 2000

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