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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Estonian silver hallmarks
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| Author | Topic: Estonian silver hallmarks |
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jsmosbey Posts: 10 |
posted 04-27-2005 05:47 PM
  
[26-0407] I am interested in any information about Estonian silver hallmarks and silversmiths. Can anyone help me? IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 04-27-2005 08:20 PM
Ask your questions and I will answer them. Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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jsmosbey Posts: 10 |
posted 04-28-2005 09:35 AM
Is there a book or web site that lists the hallmarks of Estonian silversmiths? IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 04-28-2005 10:43 AM
jsmosbey - please do not e-mail me to ask your questions. Ask your questions in the forum, because others are interested too in solving their "problems". If possible show some fotos of the silver you have. We all want to see and learn. Send your questions about the silversmiths JR and RL to the forum again and you will get your answers. Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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jsmosbey Posts: 10 |
posted 04-28-2005 11:55 AM
I have a silver bowl with the following marks: 875 lion and letters JR and a cigarette case with: 875 lion and RL. Does anyone know who the silversmiths are and date of the items? IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 04-28-2005 12:02 PM
Silverbowl: 875/1000 silver content, lion: Estonian silver proof, JR: Joseph Rubin, Tallinn 1920-1940 Cigarette case: 875/1000 silver content, lion: Estonian silver proof, RL: Richard Lange, Tallinn 1936-1940 Hope that helps Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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jsmosbey Posts: 10 |
posted 04-28-2005 01:38 PM
Much thanks. IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 04-28-2005 04:10 PM
I'm not trying to butt in, but perhaps mentioning the source of this information would be helpful too? Answering specific questions is great (especially when free), but the general question of references appears valid as well. On the other side, photos would be helpful for us outsiders to learn a thing or two on this topic... IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 04-28-2005 06:18 PM
The sources are: 15 years of collecting, visiting museums, looking, touching and comparing numerous pieces and hallmarks. Books: Eesti Höbe Höbedamärgid Eestis Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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jsmosbey Posts: 10 |
posted 04-30-2005 10:13 AM
Is there one particular Estonian silversmith tha is most desireable? IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 04-30-2005 12:03 PM
I do not exactly know what you want. Maybe you should read some books about the Estonian history of the last 150 years to realise that there were many changes in the country. (Estonian, German, Imperial Russian, German, Soviets, Estonian). Each time had fabulous silversmiths. Not knowing is not seeing and not understanding. Good luck! Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 04-30-2005 12:26 PM
Jmosbey, As some one relatively new to silver collecting, I can appreciate your question and frustration. I used to think hallmarks could be looked up in a single source that could be bought at any store. However, it is much more complicated than I imagined, which adds to both the fun and frustration. Sazikov is right about the history. Estonia was part of the Imperial Russian Empire before World War I, passed under Imperial German Control during the war, enjoyed a brief spell of independence during the interwar period, became a Soviet Republic in 1940, was occupied by the Nazis in 1941, returned to Soviet contorl, and then gained independence only at the end of the Cold War. Hallmarking conventions for each period were those of the dominant power. As Sazikov's summary of his experience indicates, silver expertise seems to be a mixture of research, art, and detective work. Good luck, IP: Logged |
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jsmosbey Posts: 10 |
posted 04-30-2005 01:05 PM
Thanks for the comments. I have been travelling to Estonia since the 80's and just became fascinated with the silversmithing of the country. I realize now that I need patience and a sense of discover. Thanks again. IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 04-30-2005 01:49 PM
jsmosbey - the next time you travel to Estonia, Tallinn I would suggest, you visit one of the many first class bookstores there and buy some of the numerous excellent books about Estonian silver. By the way, in Tallinn are some very interesting museums answering nearly all the questions you have. Be very cautious when you visit the many "antique shops", 99% of the merchandise (Russian and Estonian) is "homemade" for the tourists. Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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jsmosbey Posts: 10 |
posted 05-04-2005 03:16 PM
One more question, during the Imperial Russian rule of Estonia, was there an Estonian silver hallmark like the lion? IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 05-04-2005 04:26 PM
Yes, there was an Imperial Russian assay office in Tallinn (Revel) from 1842 until 1920, and its mark was three lions passant. (There was also an office in Tartu in the 1860s, and its mark was the city arms: a crossed sword and key above the city gates.) Apparently, some of the smaller cities continued to use non-Russian marks in the 2nd half of the 19th Century. I have never been able to find what distinguishing marks - if any - that Tallinn used during the "kokoshnik" mark periods of 1899-1907 and 1908-ca. 1915. But, as I mentioned, at least some smaller cities (Rakvere, Paide) seemed to funtion outside the Russian Imerial system. Sazikov? Was there an office in Estonia during the kokoshnik periods and, if so, do you know the assayer(s) for the first kokoshnik or the Greek letter(s) for the second? If there was no office, under which office's jurisdiction was Estonia?
[This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 05-04-2005).] IP: Logged |
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jsmosbey Posts: 10 |
posted 05-06-2005 02:34 PM
Thanks for the information. I just purchased a small silver cigarette case: 875 lion with the letters EA. Can you help once again? IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 05-08-2005 02:47 PM
blakstone - the silver manufactured in Reval (Tallinn), Pärnu (Pernau) or in the little Estonian towns, was marked from 1844 until 1888 with the Reval (Tallin) townmark (three lions) as assay office mark. From 1874 on the in Reval (Tallinn) manufactured silver bears the St. Petersburg assay office mark. From the end of the 19th century until the foundation of the Republic of Estonia all silver was hallmarked in St. Petersburg. There are 8 assaymasters: P.K (Latin) for Hermann Georg Clemens (26. 05. 1843-19. 01. 1846) A. T (Latin) (name unknown) for 184?, 1849, 1850, 1851 Ch. B (latin) (name unknown) for 1852 A. S (Latin) for Sagrebin Alexandr Pawlowitsch for 1853, 1859, 1869 Ja.N (Latin) (name unknown) for 1856, 1864, 1866 W.Ch (Latin) (name unknown) for 1869, 1870, 1873 P. F (Latin) (name unknown) for 1873,1874 I. S (Latin) (name unknown) for 1879, 1884, 188? On the silver of the silversmith Joseph Kopf from Reval (Tallinn) one can find next to the Kokoshnik the kyrillik initials "AP" from Alexander Wassilewitsch Romanow (1903-1908) from the assay office in St. Petersburg. In the year 1873 there was again a change in the Russian proof marking. It seems that the assay offices of Reval (Tallinn) and Dorpat (Tartu) were closed. The Russian proof marking was again changed in the year 1896 and the assay office and assay master marks were eliminated. From this period you nearly find no Estonian made silver. From 1908-1926 the Kokoshnik with the Greek letter "S"(Sigma) was used. The Republic Estonia used two systems to controll the content. 1920-1924 the mark was "EW"(Eesti Wabariik = Estonian Republic)) and the silvercontent, normaly "84", plus a mark in a shield looking like a lilly (others say it looks like three beams put together). In the year 1924 it was decided that the controllmark was a to the left running lion ( heraldic a leopard) in an oval and the content in promille in a second oval. [After 1924 it was the first time allowed to faricate silver with a content of 800/1000]. This hallmark was also used in the first Russian occupation (1940/41) and in the following German ocupation until 1944. You find many exeptions for the years 1842 -1884. For instance: silver made by silversmiths from Werro or Dorpat bear normally the assay office mark from Pleskau and the mark of the local assay master. But since 1885 Pleskau was changed to Riga... Can you follow? Old Estonian silver is very hard Hope the confusion is not bigger now. Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 05-08-2005 03:02 PM
jsmosbey- Lion passant in an oval - Estonia Hope that helps Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 05-09-2005 12:15 AM
Sazikov, I really hope you are working on a book about these subjects. Your kind of scholarship is so superb. Thanks for the insights and knowlege. IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 05-09-2005 11:30 PM
Many thanks, Sazikov. That's all actually quite clear, but for one thing:
quote: Did you mean to say "From 1888 on . . "? If not, I don't understand why, if there was an office active in Tallinn until 1888, silver made from 1874 wouldn't be marked there. Conversely, if silver after 1874 was marked in St. Petersburg, why was the assayer "IS" in Tallin in 1884 (could this be Ivan Spiridov, who worked in both Kaunas and Riga)? Sorry for all the questions; I'm an inquisitive sort. I thank you for your help, and hope to return the favor soon. IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 05-10-2005 12:34 AM
Just a quick comment from the peanut gallery. It is intellectually rewarding (well, from the outside, looking in through the self-smudged glass) to see you, blakstone and sazikov, discussing far corner hinterland Continental marks and assayers on a conversational basis, whereas a number of others, myself as a prime example, are still dully asking, "Um, uh, izzit solid silver or izzit plated?" Please, carry on. It is so nice to see experts at work. No kidding. IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 05-10-2005 06:30 AM
blakstone - sorry for this typo, it must read: From 1874 on the in Reval (Tallinn) manufactured silver could bear the St. Petersburg assay office mark. The assay masters I mentioned are from Reval (Tallinn) and are mostly unknown. I can give you all known assay masters from Riga too, there have been 12, 9 known by name, 3 anonym W.G (Latin) Wladimir Galkin 1841-1845 I hope all misunderstandings are clear now, the Baltic silver is not easy to understand even if you love it as I do. Sazikov 2000 IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 05-10-2005 07:02 AM
Just an example from my collection: Normally there are always 4 hallmarks:
Sazikov 2000 IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 05-10-2005 01:40 PM
Many, many thanks Sazikov. I hope that I can repay you with having replied to an old post regarding Warsaw silversmiths (Estonian walkingstick). I hope you find it helpful. Thanks again. IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 05-10-2005 03:11 PM
blakstone - if you need more informations about Baltic silver - just let me know - I would be glad to support you in any way I can. Thank you very much again for your excellent help and knowledge! Sazikov2000 IP: Logged |
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