posted 02-24-2005 04:19 AM            

Any help welcome.

Sazikov2000

posted 02-26-2005 07:21 PM            

I have been watching this post, hoping Blackstone would weigh in with an answer. Other than confirming that the piece is interwar period Estonian, which I am sure you already know, I cannot answer your question as a silver collector.

However, as an historian however, I have a thought. Since Poland and Estonia were both carved out of territory from imperial Russia and Germany after WWI, perhaps silversmiths from the old empires stayed in the new countires and kept their marks. Could the mark be Russian?

posted 02-27-2005 12:01 AM            

To make everything more complicated, I got this stick from an old woman (95 years old!)in Valga (Estonia), who bought it together with her father 1922 in Tallinn (Estonia) in a shop (which does not exist anymore). No connection to Russia or Poland! Since this day the stick was always in the family, mostly burried or hidden to avoid theft from the different occupants.

The elephant is a typical Baltic symbol for strength, faithfullness and constance and you can find it often on silver cigaret cases and the silver handbags for women, which were en vogue at that time.

posted 02-28-2005 06:54 AM            

I have another question:
You remember my napkin ring. You wrote, the silversmith is Antoni Zelislawski. On this ring is the PL/slashed mark too, together with a for me completely unkown triangle mark. It is very confusing. Is Zelislawski the dealer and Latkowski the maker? Or vice versa? Maybe you can bring some light into the case.

Just to remember 2 fotos:

Thank you very much again!
Sazikov2000

posted 02-28-2005 11:30 PM            

But I can clear up a few things, I think. First, I somehow missed the photos of the napkin ring in your other post (Dealer or silversmith?); thanks for re-posting them.

While it is not absolute, a good rule of thumb is that a trademark indicates the manufacturer, and a full name indicates the retailer. This is not so different from German, American or other items, where the manufacturer's trademark is a pictorial device, and the retailer's name is spelled out in full. The problem is that Warsaw manufacturers also used their own initials and/or name as well as their trademark, sometimes resulting in a set of three marks:

1. maker's initials (or name)
2. maker's trademark
3. retailer's name (or initials)
(And this doesn't even include the Russian marks!)

While many Warsaw trademarks are known, others have to be deduced from the common initials or name they share.

That being said, I think the triangle mark here is Latkowski's trademark; I've never seen it on a piece that didn't have his initials. That would make him the manufacturer and Antoni Zelislawski the retailer. This makes sense, since he as a manufacturer would be more likely to export something to Estonia - your cane - than would a retailer. I don't know if Zelislawski was a silversmith himself; he may well have been. It wasn't uncommon for a maker to supplement his own wares with those of a larger manufacturer, but I will say that I have generally seen his mark only with other manufacturer's trademarks; like, for instance, Bracia Hempel (Dealer or silversmith?). (I confess that I goofed when I stated in this post that �Antoni Zelislawski is known to have made items for Bracia Hempel.� I meant that the other way around � that Bracia Hempel is known to have made � i.e. supplied - items for Antoni Zelislawski.)

Another well-known trademark is the anchor of Karol Malcz and his successor, Teodor Werner & Co.

To sum up all these various posts:

Maker: Piotr Latkowski
Maker's marks: PL (with a slash through the L) in a rectangle, oval, or incuse
Trademark: a triangle

Maker: Bracia Hempel [Hempel Brothers]
Maker's Marks: �W.H.� in an oval (for Wladislaw Hempel); �Br Hempel� in a rounded rectangle or incuse
Trademark: three stars above a slipper moon

Maker: Karol Malcz & Teodor Werner
Maker's Mark: �Malcz� in script; �Werner i Sa� or �Werner i Ska�[Werner & Co.]
Trademark: an anchor

Whew! Hope this helps!

PS: If anyone is interested (and has the patience) I can put together a little precis on Warsaw hallmarks. Let me know.4

posted 03-01-2005 02:50 AM            

I am very grateful for your answering my numerous questions and correcting my thoughts, going in the wrong direction - now I understand many things better and learned a lot about the hallmarking system of the Warsaw silversmiths under Russian rule.

posted 05-10-2005 01:37 PM            

1800-1851: Old Warsaw Marks
Before 1851, Warsaw silver was marked with the guild mark (a mermaid holding a sword) until around 1810, thereafter more commonly with “Warszawa”. Accompanying either of these was the maker’s mark (usually his name or initials), the fineness (expressed in löts), and sometimes the maker’s trademark.

1851-1852: First Interim Marks
In 1851 and 1852 a “census” of silverware was taken in maker’s workshop, and these items were marked with a special mark with a crown, the word “ZAPAS”(Also “ZAP.” or just “Z.”, meaning “stock”), and the date: 1851 or 1852.

1852-1896: Russian Imperial Marks
From 1852 on, an Imperial Russian Assay office was functioning in Warsaw, and the Russian marking system was in effect. The city mark was the Imperial Eagle (frequently mistaken, including in Postnika-Lovessa, for Minsk.) Assay Masters were:

IB (Latin) Jan Biedgunowski 1850-1865
IS (Latin) Josef Sosnkowski 1852-1853
WK (Latin) Walery Kostrebski 1852-1860
WN (Latin) Wincenty Niewiadomski 1854-55
IL (Latin) Julian Lypaczewski 1865-1866
IS (Latin) Josef Sosnkowski 1860-ca 1862
IS (Cyrillic) Josef Sosnkowski ca. 1862-1869
OS (Cyrillic) Josef Sosnkowski 1869-1896
SP (Cyrillic) Stanislav Pusch 1874

Latin or Cyrillic refers to how the mark itself appears; i.e., Biedgunowski’s mark is just that: “IB”, in Latin characters, and Sosnkowski’s last mark would read “OC” (which is OS in Latin). Also note: the letter “I” in any of these marks, even the Cyrillic ones, is always rendered with the Latin “I”, never the reverse “N” of Cyrillic. Regarding Josef Sosnkowski, who you’ll notice appears four times in this list: there is no explanation for the gap between 1853 and 1860, but he does not appear to have been working in Warsaw during that time. He is known to have used three marks (which can all conveniently rendered as they actually appear): „IS” (1852-53 and 1860-62), „IC” (1862-1869) and „OC” (1869-1896). But for the single appearance of Pusch in 1874, Sosnkowski seems to have been the only assayer in Warsaw after 1866.

1897-1898: Second Interim Marks
As in most Russian cities, Warsaw used a special interim mark during the re-organization of the assay system. In Warsaw, this was the Imperial Eagle and the fineness (in zolotnik) in a rectangle, notched at the top and bottom.

1899-1908: First Kokoshnik Marks
There were two assayers:

AR (Cyrillic) Aleksandr Vasileyevich Romanov 1899-April 1904
AV (Cyrillic) Andrzei Wyrzykov April 1904-1908

Romanov moved to the St. Petersburg office in April 1904. As a result, much Warsaw silver made 1899-1904 is mistaken for St. Petersburg, since it bears Romanov’s mark!

1908-1915: Second Kokoshnik Marks
The mark for the Warsaw office was the Greek letter iota (a vertical squiggle, more or less.)

1915-1920: Third Interim Marks
After Poland’s freedom from Russia, it took a few years for the new Polish government to introduce its own hallmarking system. In the meantime, most silver was marked with the word „SREBRO” (silver), or just „SR” and the fineness, still in zolotniks.

That covers Warsaw marks until the Polish law of 16 Jul 1920 establishing precious metal control; the Warsaw office – the first - opened and began functioning on 1 Sep 1920.

Now, to the makers. Following is a list of prominent Warsaw makers of the 19th and early 20th century and their marks. Also given is a description their known trademarks, which (as evidenced by this post) can cause confusion. Note that the dates given here are not absolute, generally being inferred from other marks and/or inscriptions. It is possible that any given maker worked a little out of the period mentioned. Unless noted, the marks appear with Latin characters

Warsaw Silversmiths 1850-1930

Bauminger, Abram 1908-1915
Marks: A. BAUMINGER

Birkowski, Wojciech– Kazimierz Birkowki 1897-1908
Marks: W.BIRKOWSKI; also, W.B in a lozenge; also, KB
Trademark: Star of David

Bitschan, Pavel 1888
Marks: P.BITSCHAN
Trademark: Bird’s wing?

Bretsznajder, E aft. 1920
Marks: EB

Bugajewski, Alexsander aft. 1920
Marks: AB

Ch, E 1908-1915
Marks: EX (Cyrillic)

Charlap, Moszek 1897-1915
Marks: M.CHARLAP (Cyrillic); also MX (Cyrillic)

Chylinski, Jan aft. 1920
Marks: J.CH

Cmoch, Franciszek 1908-1915
Marks: F.C.

Cynowski, Jan 1921-1931
Marks: J.CYNOWSKI; also, J.C.

F, M 1893
Marks: MF
Trademark: Two fish

Fraget, Joseph 1885-1908
Marks: FRAGET; also, FRAGET ARGENT
Trademark: Imperial eagle

Glebocki, Napoleon 1860
Marks: N.Glebocki (script)
Trademark: Fleur-de-lys

Goldman, A. 1882
Marks: A.Goldman (script)
Trademark: Goblet with “AG”

Goldman, Izrael A. 1877
Marks: I.A.Goldman (script); AG
Trademark: Elephant

Gontarczyk, Wiktor 1921-1948
Marks: wyk. Gontarczyk WARSZAWA

Hempel, Bracia 1899-1915
Marks: WH; BR.HEMPEL
Trademark: Three stars above a slipper moon

Jarzemski, Franciszek 1896-1915
Marks: FJ
Trademark: Mermaid with sword

Juwiler, Adam aft. 1920
Marks: A.J. W.wa

Juwiler, Henryk aft. 1920
Marks: H.JUWILER

Kazimierz Klimowicz – Klimowicz, Sephan 1874 -1908
Marks: KLIMOWICZ; also, KK
Trademark: Arrow?

Kelmer, Jankiel 1873-76
Marks: J.KELMER
Trademark: Boat with single oarsman

Kozlowski, Michal 1897-1908
Marks: M. KOZLOWSKI

Krejnes, Dawid N. 1899-1908
Marks: D. N. KREJNES (Cyrillic)

Kreutzer, Joszef 1860
Marks: I. KREUTZER
Trademark: Three stars

Krupski & Matulewicz (Wladyslaw Krupski & Jan Matulewicz) 1930s
Marks: KiM; also, W. KRUPSKI i J. MATULEWICZ

Labecki, Cyprian 1897-1898
Marks: Labecki (script)
Trademark: Bull’s head

Latkowski, Piotr 1899-1920
Marks: P.LATKOWSKI; also, PL
Trademark: Triangle

Lopienski, Grzegorz (later Bracia Lopienscy, ca. 1908) 1899-aft. 1920
Marks: LOPIENSKI; also, GFL?; also, BR.LOPIENSCY; also, Br.L
Trademark: Lyre

Luther, Wilhelm 1855-1861
Marks: W.LUTHER
Trademark: Rooster

Majerowicz, L. 1875
Marks: L.MAJEROWICZ

Malcz, Karol 1855-1867
Marks: Malcz (in script)
Trademark: Anchor

Mankielewicz, Michal aft. 1920
Marks: M.MANKIELEWICZ

Nagalski i Psyk (Adam Nagalski) 1899-aft. 1920
Marks: NiP; also, NAGALSKI-PSYK; also, A.NAGALSKI; also, AN

Nast, Ludwik 1852-1879
Marks: Nast (script); also, L.Nast (script)
Trademark: Garter

Nowakowski, Maciej 1853-1855
Marks: Nowakowski (script)
Trademark: Stork

Oksenberg, Lewek 1867
Marks: L.O
Trademark: Bird (grouse?)

Ostrochulski 1883
Marks: OSTROCHULSKI

Owczarski, Stanislaw aft. 1920
Marks: S.O

Paszkowski, Stefan 1858
Marks: S. Pasz/kowski (script)
Trademark: Two crossed anchors

Pogorzelski, Jan 1854-1898
Marks: POGORZELSKI; also, Pogorzelski (script); also, JP (script)
Trademark: Stag’s head

Princenthal, Mojzsez 1908-1915
Marks: M.P.
Trademark: Horse (facing left)

Radke, Emil 1852-1915
Marks: Radke (script); also, RADKE; also, G.RADKE; also, GR

Reiner, Abram 1861-1872
Marks: AR; Reiner (script)
Trademark: Leaping stag

Reiner, Widgor 1879
Marks: V.REINER (Cyrillic)

Riedel, Antoni 1879-1908
Marks: A.RIEDEL ; AR
Trademark: Bell?

Roever, Fryderyk 1874-75
Marks: F.ROEVER
Trademark: Mermaid holding a sword (NB: identical to the old 18th C. Warsaw mark!)

Rozenblat, Mendel 1897-1898
Marks: M.ROZENBLAT

Sadcza, Wladyslaw aft. 1920
Marks: WS

Schreider, Edward 1860
Marks: Schreider (script)
Trademark: Heron?

Swinarski, Michal 1855-1858
Marks: Swinarski (script)
Trademark: Flying bird

Szekman, Izrael 1895-1915
Marks: I.Szekman (script); also, I.SZEKMAN; also, J.S; also, I.S.
Trademark: Fish

Szkarlat, B. 2nd half, 19th C.
Marks: B.SKARLAT; also, BS (both Cyrillic)

Szkarlat, Szmul 1883
Marks: S.SZKARLAT
Trademark: Ewer

Szkarlat, W. aft. 1920
Marks: WSZ

Sztern, M. L. 1875-1876
Marks: MLS; also SZTERN; also M.SHTERN (Cyrillic)
Trademark: Lion

Szyldberg, R. Hersz 1864-1872
Marks: SZYLDBERG; also, R. Szyldberg (script)
Trademark: Balance pans with “RHS”

Tapilband 1881
Marks: Tapilband (script)

Utracki, Thomasz 2nd half, 19th C.
Marks: UTRACKI

Wapinski, Ludwik 1899-1908
Marks: L. WAPINSKI

Werner i Sa. (Teoder Werner) 1876-1896
Marks: WERNERiSa; also, T.WERNERiSa; also, T.WERNERiSka
Trademark: Anchor

Wietryzkowski, Boleslaw 1875
Marks: Wietryzkowski (script)
Trademark: Horse (facing right)

Zagorowski, Kacper 1853
Marks: ZAGOROWSKI; also, KZ (script)
Trademark: Bell?

Zelislawski, Antoni 1899-1908
Marks: A.ZELISLAWSKI

Zybert, M 1908-1915
Marks: M. ZYBERT

posted 05-10-2005 02:36 PM            

I am completely overwhelmed! This is exactly the missing link for my understanding the Russian/Polish assay office habits and rules plus the different smiths and their trademarks. I do not know how to thank you for your tremendous effort and the time you spent to build this list. As mentioned before I tried since years to get this informations - always in vain. Now I am really happy and content! Thank you very, very much again!

I think there are two Typos:
1899-1908: First Kokoshnik Marks
A.V. Romanov must be AP not AR in Cyrillic
A. Wyrzykov must be AB not AV in Cyrillic

posted 05-10-2005 06:21 PM            

I really do hope you write a book, which would be a great contribution to the literature. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Tom

posted 05-10-2005 06:48 PM            

Sazikov: you are correct that the assay master's initals can be conveniently and coincidentally rendered in Cyrillic on a Latin keyboard as you have done. I wrote them the way I did, however, to be consistent with the earlier assayer's marks given, with "(Cyrillic)" meaning that the mark reads with the Cyrillic equivalents of the Latin characters given. But doubtless there are some errors in there, what with typing all those Polish names!

posted 05-10-2005 11:54 PM            

Yes, there is always more to learn. However, no book is ever finished. Some authors publish their work anyway; the rest have their unfinished manuscripts tossed out by their heirs!