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Author Topic:   835 Silver
Waylander

Posts: 131
Registered: Sep 2004

iconnumber posted 10-08-2004 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Waylander     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-1797]

I have been asked by a family friend what country is signified by the .835 indicator for silver content. I know that this silver content % is not unique, I have never come across it expressed in numbers. Can anyone help?

Waylander

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ozfred

Posts: 87
Registered: Sep 2002

iconnumber posted 10-08-2004 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozfred     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the stamp is within an oval and prefixed with "A" then this is the second silver standard for Belgium that was enacted on 1 January 1942.
There is probably a maker's mark in a barrel shaped punch as well.

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dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-09-2004 08:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Belgium would be a good bet, but I've also occasionally seen 835 in numerals on Dutch pieces. Somewhere in the back of my head, seem to remember having a fairly recent (1960s-70s) piece marked 835 along with the original German makers label.

Cheryl ;o)

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middletom

Posts: 467
Registered: May 2004

iconnumber posted 10-09-2004 09:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for middletom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This past summer when doing an exhibition of flatware making at the Maritime Festival in Salem, Mass. I met a man from Norway who said that that is the standard there, too. More recently I met a woman from Norway who confirmed the use of 835 silver, though she didn't take the attitude that it is superior to sterling, as the gentleman this summer did.

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doc

Posts: 712
Registered: Jul 2003

iconnumber posted 10-10-2004 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I, too, am interested in this question, as I have recently seen a piece marked with 835, combined with a crescent moon and crown mark and a G contained in a six-sided star. The piece is a candelabra and has an Art Nouveau style to it.

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dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-10-2004 04:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi middletom,

I'm very surprised to hear about 835 Norwegian silver. I've collected Scandinavian silver for many years and don't recall ever seeing a piece marked "835". 830 is Norway's minimum for fineness, and every piece I've ever seen has been marked 830 or 925 (usually followed by an "S"). Perhaps there's been a change in their standards, though I can't imagine why. There are several European countries that have or had an 835 standard, but I believe most of them indicated the fineness with some sort of mark other than just the numerals. Feeling a bit better about my memory on Germany, since a quick check of my Mom's silver turned up a couple of 835 Hildesheimer Rose pieces and a small bowl marked 835 w/crown & crescent.

Just out of curiosity, what was the gentleman's argument regarding the superiority of the lower standard silver? In my pieces I find virtually no differences in the quality or the look, though I have a vague feeling that, on the whole, they do tarnish a bit slower than the 925 pieces. It actually seems to me that many (not all) of my Scandinavian pieces, regardless of silver content, seem to resist tarnish better than American pieces in the same case (could be my imagination). Perhaps a different metal alloyed with the silver?

Cheryl ;o)

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doc

Posts: 712
Registered: Jul 2003

iconnumber posted 10-11-2004 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Should have done a search-I found a A (German?) Silver Candy Dish that identifies the maker I am interested in-FYI it is Jakob Grimminger.

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FredZ

Posts: 1069
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 10-11-2004 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe 835 is a common alloy used in Scandinavian countries. Finland comes to mind as using the alloy extensively in their silver. This alloy is also used to create reticulated sufaces on silver. (The wrinkled surface made famous by Faberge.)

Fred

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dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-11-2004 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there,

I think that Waylander's original question was concerned with trying to figure out which countries might have used just the numerals "835". In over twenty years of collecting Scandinavian silver, I don't believe I've ever run across any marked "835". Have seen a very few pieces identified as Scandinavian, but they were guessed at by style and not proven by marks or provenance. I'm not saying they don't exist, but believe they would be extremely uncommon. Any Finnish pieces I've seen have been marked either 813H or 916H, though I believe they also used 830H, 875H & 925H at some time. Denmark and Norway use an 830 and 925 standard (both sometimes marking 925 pieces as "sterling"). While Sweden only specifies an 830 minimum, I have run across several Swedish pieces marked "sterling".

Interestingly, I have a few pieces of Scandinavian guilloche enamel and it seems to make sense to me that a bit harder lower fineness silver might be better for both the engine-turning and enamelling, but I believe all of my pieces are sterling.

Cheryl ;o)

[This message has been edited by dragonflywink (edited 10-11-2004).]

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1768
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 10-12-2004 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I concur with Cheryl that 835 is not known to have been found on Scandinavian silver. Their most common finenesses are 92.5% and 83.0%, although some Danish silver from c. the 1920s and before is made of .826 purity silver.

My first guess when seeing 835 silver is usually Germany, Holland, or somewhere else nearby in Europe. The crown & crescent moon mark on doc's item is Germany's mark, I think used from 1888 on.

[This message has been edited by Paul Lemieux (edited 10-12-2004).]

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Waylander

Posts: 131
Registered: Sep 2004

iconnumber posted 10-12-2004 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Waylander     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for all the answers. Yes, I should have been clearer, but Cheryl understood what I was asking about - who used the numerical 835 stamp (as opposed to a purity indicator for 835 silver)

Cheers

Waylander

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dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-12-2004 09:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Paul is absolutely correct on the 826, though not seen very often, and as he indicated, usually on early twentieth century pieces. Many of my Danish pieces have only the three-tower assay mark to guarantee at least 826 fineness, which is Denmark's minimum. I believe they stopped using that mark in the early 1960s.

Just to add a little more complication, my mother has a wonderful old intricately enamelled salt and spoon by Copenhagen silver maker Peter Hertz marked 924. The exact same set is pictured in a recent book on salts, also marked 924. I've run across a few other Hertz pieces marked 924, most enamelled. Not sure I've run across anything marked 924 by any other maker. The one Hertz piece I own, also beautifully enamelled, is marked simply "P.HERTZ", without any indication of silver content. Would guess these pieces to from the 1880s-90s.

Cheryl ;o)

[This message has been edited by dragonflywink (edited 10-12-2004).]

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 10-12-2004 10:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I seem to recall having seen Norwegian pieces marked 835. My recollection is they were not up to the standard of the Oslo makers. Perhaps, the 835 mark is a provincial one, used in rural areas?

Looking at a map, it seems that to ship 835 silver in the rough from Holland to west Norway would be fairly easy. It could then be finished by local smiths and sold. That seems like a sort of solution to this mystery. Any thoughts?

My understanding, which could easily be incorrect, is that the 925 mark on Scandinavian silver indicates it was made for export to the English speaking world. And that the other marks indicate production for home use. Does anyone know about this?

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dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-13-2004 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've also heard that sterling pieces were originally made for the English speaking market and it makes some sense to me. My Peter Hertz piece without a Danish fineness indicator was imported to and assayed in London. I've run across several fairly early pieces of Jensen that I might have expected to be 826 or 830, marked 925 with British import marks. I've also heard that Jensen's American retailers wanted their stock to be sterling.

As for Norwegian 835 pieces, personally, just haven't ever seen one. Have seen a few pieces (and several German 800 pieces) being sold as Norwegian or Danish, but have yet to see any marks that would confirm it. Entirely possible that a Norwegian silversmith would decide to use 835 silver (I'm sure some of the 830 pieces would assay out to higher fineness) and mark it that way, but can't imagine why. Then again, why would a Dane mark his pieces 924?

Cheryl ;o)

[This message has been edited by dragonflywink (edited 10-13-2004).]

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 10-13-2004 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why would a Norwegian silversmith use 835? Well, since the dawn of the industrial revolution, silver making has experienced innovation. One innovation was having factories make up silver in a rough form. That would be the initial shaping. We can see this in the US where items marked Wood and Hughs show up with marks of other smiths. And usually the finishing work is no where near as good as standard W&H work. There exists no particular reason to confine this process to the US. I am sure there were enterprising European smiths who did the same thing. So, my guess would be a Dutch smith set up a small factory to produce silverware in the rough and sold it to other makers. These makers were probably provincial, outside the cities where the guilds dominated. And as 835 is above the 830 standard, there is no fraud.

We do know that Norway, Sweden and Denmark produced a great many silver workers. And as I pointed out in a previous post, many of them emigrated. The emigration came mainly from rural areas. Given the large number of silversmiths we know about who were trained in Norway and Sweden, it seems reasonable to assume that there were lots of very small scale smiths in that region. Who would have been a likely market for partially produced items. Norway, with its long coast and isolated fjord, seems like the perfect market for export.

In looking at silver it can be easy to forget that however artistic and skilled a piece is, it was produced by a business.

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dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-13-2004 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Never at any point have I said that there is absolutely no Scandinavian silver marked 835. In fact, my nature is to enjoy the idiosyncracies in any research. Witness my interest in a few pieces oddly marked 924. Once more, in many years of collecting Scandinavian silver, I personally have never seen any marked 835. Would love to see one just because I never have. Love researching, but sometimes find Continental silver frustrating, especially for someone who speaks only English. If I ask a question, I'm genuinely interested, and appreciate Dale's theory on Norwegian 835 pieces. Now if someone could just track one down, I would truly love to see it and will add the information to my little notebook of silver facts.

Cheryl ;o)

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1768
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 10-19-2004 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Waylander, perhaps you can post a picture of some of these items your friend has, and we can determine country of origin style-wise.

My guess would still be German or Dutch.

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middletom

Posts: 467
Registered: May 2004

iconnumber posted 10-26-2004 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for middletom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sorry to have apparently started a ruckus about the 835 silver from Norway. I may have remembered wrong and perhaps both those folks had mentioned 830 rather that 835. Dragonflywink, you seem to be very familiar with the subject, so I'll bow to your knowledge rather than my memory.
As to why the gentleman thought 830 superior to sterling, he said that 830 was harder and made a more durable item than sterling did. Perhaps it is harder, but well worked sterling is certainly plenty hard and durable.

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mefecit

Posts: 7
Registered: Mar 2004

iconnumber posted 10-30-2004 07:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mefecit     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello: A "left field" history lesson on why some silver from northern Europe has so many "odd" grades of silver. People talk about coin silver as if everyone has always used .900 fine for coins. Norway had three different coin silver standards in the 18 th century! .875 ,.672 ,.562. Different fineness marks are often based on the coin fineness and a small alowance for solder. A piece marked .835 could have a body made from .875 coin and enough solder to asay out at something like .840 for the total weight. It was the minimum total silver content that was insured by the .835 mark.
The bit about .924 silver is most likely a tax dodge. .925 sterling was often taxed at a higher rate than other silver
Hope this helps.
Bye
Mefecit

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knightvision@vif.com
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iconnumber posted 10-31-2004 09:27 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi I recently inherited an old italian hand made pencil, from 1920s and it has the 835 mark on it, butnothing else,not even an oval around the 835. I just know that it was made in italy.

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kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 08-25-2006 06:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is a while when this was discussed but I would like to make some additions.

I have bowl with Finnish import marks (local reseller) and then a mark with S835 in an oval frame. I was thinking that the S835 (export mark?) might be from a Scandinavian country (Sweden, Norway or Denmark) as there is the S which means silver in the local language. The same goes for Scandinavian products which have been made localy as we know they are marked 830S in Denmark and Norway.

This is of course guessing so the bowl might be from a middle European country where the S835 mark is used (which I don't know).

I would like to get some ideas if it could be this way.

Regards,
Juhana

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kerppola

Posts: 69
Registered: Jul 2006

iconnumber posted 08-29-2006 03:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kerppola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I later found out that this would be from Germany. 835 silver has not been used in the Scandinavian countries so that was ruled out.

Regards,
Juhana

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Raf Steel

Posts: 94
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 09-03-2006 11:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Raf Steel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As ozfred pointed out, 835 is often Belgium after 1942 (actually after 1945 in most cases, not a lot of activity during the war), but this had 1 main reson: export to Holland where the 833 standard was used. Belgium used to follow French standards (800 and 950) but due to the large export to Holland switched to 835. why not 833 then? Probably a commercial decision. Also German silver, exported to Holland (and later Belgium) carries a 835 mark. My guess is that Scandinavian makers exorting to Holland did the same thing.
Raf

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