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Author Topic:   Help with hallmark
Davscot
unregistered
iconnumber posted 11-17-2003 08:59 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-1307]

Hi there,

I recently bought this silver case and was wondering if you could tell me about the hallmarks, which appear to be European.

Thanks

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Patrick Vyvyan

Posts: 640
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 11-22-2003 08:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Vyvyan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looking at the wear on the top rim, I guess your case is silverplate.
And the design looks very Dutch, so Holland might be a start.
European silverplate marks are tricky (at least for me).
By the by, do you know what it was orignally for? Cigars, perhaps?

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Davscot
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iconnumber posted 11-23-2003 01:57 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there,

I'm unsure what its used for, but it is definitely silver. That's just a reflection on the top.

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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 11-23-2003 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like an etui made of die stamped or die rolled sheet to me.

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vathek

Posts: 962
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 11-24-2003 08:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Admittedly the hallmarks do look Dutch, but tho the photos are clear, I still am not sure what I'm looking at.

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Kimo

Posts: 1597
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-24-2003 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It may just be the photo but I agree with Vathek, the marks don't appear to my eye to actually represent anything. They seem to be random collections of shapes, lines and dots that give the initial impression of representing something rather than actually representing specific shapes, images or letters.

Also, the quality of the manufacture is a bit off in my personal opinion, such as the line of raised bumps along the edge of the top wandering around a bit rather than being carefully placed in a straight line.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 11-24-2003).]

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Patrick Vyvyan

Posts: 640
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 11-24-2003 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Vyvyan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From the photo, what I think I see is:

left, a hunting horn supported on a ribbon or cord in a diagonal lozenge with a dot in the lower angle.
middle, a shield with a crown above. In the shield there may be a man with arm raised about to hit something with a hammer, but this may be wishful thinking.
right, I think this mark is on its side and shows initials, perhaps NR, BUT there is something funny about this, like they could almost be Russian script.....?

I hope Davscot can clarify

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Davscot
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iconnumber posted 11-25-2003 03:08 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the replies. The third mark looks like an "N" in a scrolled font with a dagger through it. The quality of the piece I was thinking might be an indication of an early age? If it is a man with a hammer, what does this mean?

Thanks Again

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vathek

Posts: 962
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 11-25-2003 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The horn with cord is for the Dutch assay office at Hoorn but the cartouche should be an oval, not a diamond. Is it a standing lion in the middle?

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Kimo

Posts: 1597
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-25-2003 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They could also be pseudomarks. This, in addition to the lack of detail on the figures, their proportions being a bit off, the wandering application of the raised dots on the lid, the slightly uneven dot and dash designs on the rim and base make me think this is less than first quality.

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Davscot
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iconnumber posted 11-27-2003 11:21 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The first mark is indeed a horn suspended by a cord. The second mark looks like a crown above a coat of arms. Inside the shield shape are two small "x" shapes on top of each other. The third mark appears to be "N" with a dagger through it.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 11-27-2003 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The lighting on the middle mark failed to show the X's as such, so its origin was not apparent. The city mark for Amsterdam is a crowned shield with three X's arranged vertically - this mark looks incomplete, truncated at the bottom; if this is actually so, then your piece is indeed of Dutch origin.

A potential problem, however, is that one would think it should appear together with a rempant lion within a shield, rather than the mark for Hoorn. Elias Voet Merken van Amsterdamsche Goud- en Zilversmeden shows three marks with letter forms of the N similat to yours, all from the 18th C; however thes are apart from the main list of marks, in a separate table, along with a notation that at least one of these appears in conjunction with a Haarlem mark, or that one is a Haarlem date mark (I don't read Dutch very well!).

I suppose, if this combination of marks that seem to be from 3 different locations is actually improper, then they may be imitations.

There is another current thread in which there is an address of an office in the Netherlands which could be of help in clarification of the marks. hallmarks on sterling ladle

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Davscot
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iconnumber posted 11-27-2003 01:38 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks very much!

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vathek

Posts: 962
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 11-27-2003 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marks really seem to be psuedo Dutch. Possibly a Hanau knockoff?

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