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 Please help ID Old Family Knife
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| Author | Topic: Please help ID Old Family Knife |
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LauraR Posts: 4 |
posted 05-14-2018 11:41 PM
  
Hello! My name is Laura and I recently came across this old knife that has been in my family for years. I would love to know approximately how old it is and if it's American made. The value of the knife isn't important. Hopefully, with your help, I can figure out who in my family once owned this. After searching online, it seems like it may be an old butter knife? It's very thin metal, weighs 23 grams and is 7-1/2" long. It has "C&S" stamped on the back with an elongated star mark. Thank you! IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 05-15-2018 01:00 PM
Welcome to the forum. I think your quess that it is a butter knife is correct, but I am not sure it was made in the U.S. None of my references for American silver show a silversmith for C & S nor do they show a star like your star. Also the pin prick engraving is more typical of European silver than American silver. That of course does not mean it was not made here, just that none of my references show these marks. I hope you enjoy your butter knife. We also use them for cheese. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 05-15-2018).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 05-15-2018 01:14 PM
ALso, given the discolorations, apparent pitting and edge wear it is possible that it could be silver plated rather than solid silver and if so that could be a reason for no silver purity markings. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 05-15-2018 01:30 PM
There appears to be a mark before the C&S. ????? IP: Logged |
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LauraR Posts: 4 |
posted 05-15-2018 01:46 PM
quote: Thanks for all of your replies. This knife could also be from England or Ireland. Is silver plate the same as Coin silver? IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 05-16-2018 08:46 PM
Silver plate is a non-silver metal--sometimes copper or brass, but often a whitish alloy of metals--which is then coated with silver. Coin silver is an alloy (or mixture) of mostly silver, with perhaps 10%-20% some other metal, generally copper. (Sterling silver is 92.5% silver, with 7.5% other metal, generally copper.) Your knife is charming. It's probably from the mid-19th century. I can't tell from the photos whether it's coin silver or silver plate. One of our members, agleopar, collects butter knives from this period; perhaps he will chime in. [This message has been edited by Polly (edited 05-16-2018).] IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 05-16-2018 09:46 PM
Hi Laura, My immediate reaction is that this is US coin. The mark looks like one of the NY state makers that John McGrews book documents. If I have it at work I'll look it up. The engraving is basic and the sharp shoulders with the off center tip ( the bird shape at the top of the handle) make me think earlier than 1850... I could be wrong?! IP: Logged |
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LauraR Posts: 4 |
posted 05-16-2018 11:15 PM
Thank you for the information, Polly. This is so interesting. agleopar, thanks for your insight as well. It is much appreciated. If you do find the mark in your book, I would love to know what you find out. I have ancestors who lived in PA in the early-mid 19th century..maybe it belonged to them. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 05-17-2018 12:49 AM
Coin silver is an imprecise term that dealers and collectors use for silver objects that were made in the US before sterling silver became the normal quality standard used by most silver smiths and factories. Prior to the discovery of large amounts of silver in the US, silver smiths and factories had to get silver from wherever they could. This normally was from several sources including damaged or out of style silverware or candlesticks or plates or whatever people had brought over from Europe. They often also threw in silver coins of various countries, and anything else they could get their hands on that was made of silver. They would throw everything into a melting pot and the result would be silver of indeterminate purity, but normally somewhere between 80 percent and 95 percent pure silver - depending on what they threw into the melting pot. 100 percent pure silver is of no use for anything that is actually used since it is so soft you can easily bend it with your fingers. In 1858 an enormous deposit of silver was discovered in Nevada and by 1859 several large mines were in operation digging out silver ore as fast as they could. By around 1870 there was so much silver available in the US from this and other newly discovered mines that there was no need for making coin silver and most smiths and factories were using the sterling standard to compete with English silver which was also sterling. Coin silver was hard to sell as many people saw it as inferior to English sterling. As Polly mentioned, sterling means 92.5 percent silver exactly, with 7.5 percent other metal - usually copper - alloyed with it to make it strong enough to actually use. Some smiths and factories continued to make objects out of coin silver after the 1870s and still make it today but not because they need to, but rather to imitate antique silver and its more greyish color. This type of coin silver was and is made directly from pure silver ingots alloyed with copper in a ratio of 90 percent silver and 10 percent copper. Some makers even mark this silver with the words "coin silver" as a marketing tool. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 05-17-2018 11:19 AM
Well written Kimo! IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 05-17-2018 11:27 AM
Ditto- very well written. Thank you Kimo IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 05-17-2018 01:11 PM
Yes, great run-down on coin silver, Kimo! IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 05-17-2018 02:15 PM
Kimo, that was very on point! I do have McGrews book and although he does not have this mark I think that it is the mark for C.C&S - Curtis Candee & Stiles, 1831-35 CT they sold wholesale to the east coast states. This is if the rubbed mark is a C but it also could just be C&S for Curtis & Stiles partners after Candee left. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 05-17-2018 02:44 PM
This is the generally accepted mark for Curtiss, Candee & Stiles: IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 05-17-2018 03:11 PM
Additional mark for Curtiss, Candee & Stiles and Curtiss & Stiles: IP: Logged |
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LauraR Posts: 4 |
posted 05-17-2018 05:12 PM
Wow, thank you all for the great information. Kimo, thanks for all of the coin silver information. I didn't expect to learn so much about silver so quickly. I'm so excited to know of a possible silversmith for my knife, this helps me narrow it down to an ancestor born in 1812 in PA. You guys are great!! IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 05-18-2018 09:39 AM
LauraR, be warned, coin silver can be VERY addicting!  IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 05-19-2018 07:51 AM
 McGrew in his book Manufacturers' Marks on American Coin Silver shows the above five pointed star for the Curtis company. McGrew also shows that they used a six pointed star. The star shown seems different to me than the one on your spoon, but given the obvious liking for stars they may have used several different stars. The star could represent the actual worker that made the spoon. Each worker would have been assigned his own mark that he or she put on their finished product. Companies used this for various reasons, including quality control. Thanks for the good eyes of Scott for seeing the extra mark. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 05-19-2018 02:35 PM
Scott, ahwt, none of the books have (C)C&S but since the firm had 3 iterations and McGrew only has one style of star assiociated with them my thought is that there may be a punch unaccounted. Unfortunately McGrew was going to do a second edition but... I have not heard of it happening. My hope was that marks like the one on this knife would be collected and with the collective mind of his followers those uncataloged marks, like this stretched star would find their makers. IP: Logged |
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KcSilversmith Posts: 1 |
posted 06-05-2018 10:20 AM
They could be marks from Royal Cowles I will try to find the research materials. About 10 years ago we came across our first C&S star hallmark. We have XRF analyzed 11 different pieces only one was actual silver 86.3%Ag 10.8%Cu 2.9%Zn the others were not even silver plate but solid nickel. I only remember because Mr. Cowles because of his strange history. Royal Cowles Was in the partnerships of Cowles & Albertson 1849-1853; R. Cowles & Co. 1857-1871; and Cowles & Ransom with George F. Ransom c. 1874-1875. In Jan., 1879, Cowles disappeared, and it was thought he had committed suicide. He was found 11 months later living in a hospital in St. Clairsville, OH. Suffering from total amnesia. Hw would later work for other jewelers, first in Cleveland and later New York City, until shortly before his death in 1897. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-05-2018 01:45 PM
Welcome KcSilversmith to the Silver Salon Forums. Interesting addition...thanks. In a separate post please introduce yourself. Some other posts which mention Royal Cowles:
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